New heat treating method??

[Marc St Louis]

For over a month before Billy's "Fire Dancer High Performance White Wood Bows DVD trailer" on Youtube was recognized by people on this board, we had overwhelmingly great responses.  Then Marc appeared in the comments of the trailer and publicly stated, "it sounds like they are trying to lay claim to something that does not belong to them."  Which is absolutely not true and an extremely bold statement since he does not know the details of what we are doing.  He then immediately came to this board and referring to the trailer stated "some people have no shame."  At this time the munchkins rushed to his side and this board went nasty.  You might take it a little different if the comments and insults from members of this board  were hurled at you.

That comment I made was in response to someone saying that a DVD of the TBB would be a good thing, not what this DVD is about.

I was going by what I have seen in those vids, which don't show anything new and in fact seem to use much of what I have been doing over the years.  I guess the truth will come out when you release your DVD.  If it is a revolutionary as you say then it will speak for itself

Good luck

[Shannon]

This will be my fourth and last post here.  Obviously, some of you cannot read very well or understand what you are reading.  I stand on every word on my website.  I have never said I invented fire hardening.  A "unique fire hardening method?"  Yes.  A method that will "revolutionize" how white wood bows are made?   The three of us think so and do not think for one minute that we have not read everything that is available to the public.  Did I know of Marc's methods - absolutely.  Was I using any of Marc's methods when I began to realize something different?  Absolutely Not!  I, like Thad, am part Native American, 21%.  I know the names and burial sites of my ancestors who suffered the mistreatment and horrors of the Trail of Tears.  When I stumbled upon my findings, I was practicing the arts of my ancestors and Not Marc's!  My people were applying heat to bows long before Marc came on the scene and I was very well aware of that before I ever knew Marc existed.  But yet, I still acknowledged modern heat treatment on my website and will do so on my DVD.  The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways.  My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else.  The greatest benefit of what I am doing is that moisture management becomes obsolete.  White wood bows made with my method will not have anymore moisture concerns than Osage.  I can spot the exact same Osage bow five (5) pounds and still out shoot it easily with much less hand shock.
While it seems that some here may be used to people referring to them as thieves, liars and charlatans, we are not.
Sleek and others, you all need to stay in your lane on the marketing.   I majored in Marketing and Economics and I have five (5) patents.  I have very successfully developed, pioneered and marketed several products nationally and internationally all the way to Walmart and the US Government.  And you are trying to tell me about marketing?  You are so far out of your league, you do not have a clue where the ball field is.  The most I have seen from you is a YouTube with a dozen or so viewers.  Great stuff.
There are some extremely talented bowyers on this board, wish I was as good as them, but many of you should not flatter yourselves so much just because you are a part of this little gang.  You are not nearly as good as you think you are. We had originally hoped to come to this board with what we brought to the table and be part of learning everything there is to know about this. I do not claim to know all the answers to the many questions there will be. Some on this board have been receptive and cordial and we appreciate it.  Considering the attitudes of many of you though, I do not have the appetite and have other things to do and think about like a hurricane at this moment.  Badger, I welcome and hope you will reach out to me.  What Thad said. No need to reply.  Not interested. Gone for good.

[PatM]

 

 "The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways.  My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else."


 It has no connection but it's currently similar?   Huh?
 

[bradsmith2010]

What about chrono results...that would really be great,..10 gpp...then it would validate out shooting other bows.,.also how many times the bow was shot before test and type of string,..I think that is what I am most curios about...resistance to moisture is great,,,but a hard shooting bow is important as well,..tells a Lot about the bow,.and maker,,if you don't post test results,.it will be hard to acknowledge your claims,..I have been posting here for quite a while,,,the guys here are very reasonable,.brilliant and talented,.the combined years of experience,..makes it a great site to learn,.as knowledge is freely shared and backed up with test results

[PatM]

Right here, Brad.
h ttps://shannonoutdoors.com/Primitive-Bow


  fix the gap, not sure if he's a sponsor.

[sleek]

This will be my fourth and last post here.  Obviously, some of you cannot read very well or understand what you are reading.  I stand on every word on my website.  I have never said I invented fire hardening.  A "unique fire hardening method?"  Yes.  A method that will "revolutionize" how white wood bows are made?   The three of us think so and do not think for one minute that we have not read everything that is available to the public.  Did I know of Marc's methods - absolutely.  Was I using any of Marc's methods when I began to realize something different?  Absolutely Not!  I, like Thad, am part Native American, 21%.  I know the names and burial sites of my ancestors who suffered the mistreatment and horrors of the Trail of Tears.  When I stumbled upon my findings, I was practicing the arts of my ancestors and Not Marc's!  My people were applying heat to bows long before Marc came on the scene and I was very well aware of that before I ever knew Marc existed.  But yet, I still acknowledged modern heat treatment on my website and will do so on my DVD.  The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways.  My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else.  The greatest benefit of what I am doing is that moisture management becomes obsolete.  White wood bows made with my method will not have anymore moisture concerns than Osage.  I can spot the exact same Osage bow five (5) pounds and still out shoot it easily with much less hand shock.
While it seems that some here may be used to people referring to them as thieves, liars and charlatans, we are not.
Sleek and others, you all need to stay in your lane on the marketing.   I majored in Marketing and Economics and I have five (5) patents.  I have very successfully developed, pioneered and marketed several products nationally and internationally all the way to Walmart and the US Government.  And you are trying to tell me about marketing?  You are so far out of your league, you do not have a clue where the ball field is.  The most I have seen from you is a YouTube with a dozen or so viewers.  Great stuff.
There are some extremely talented bowyers on this board, wish I was as good as them, but many of you should not flatter yourselves so much just because you are a part of this little gang.  You are not nearly as good as you think you are. We had originally hoped to come to this board with what we brought to the table and be part of learning everything there is to know about this. I do not claim to know all the answers to the many questions there will be. Some on this board have been receptive and cordial and we appreciate it.  Considering the attitudes of many of you though, I do not have the appetite and have other things to do and think about like a hurricane at this moment.  Badger, I welcome and hope you will reach out to me.  What Thad said. No need to reply.  Not interested. Gone for good.

Bye Felicia

[bradsmith2010]

thanks Pat, those numbers are very respectable,, but in line with what guys are shooting here, and not as high as some,, also no mention on how many times the bow had been shot,, which will effect chrono results as well,, also from Test DC had made,, he says the bows shoot a bit faster with machine than fingers,, dont really have much experience with that,, I think I remember Steve saying his release was a bit faster than machine,,,so seeing that info,, I still am of the opinion,, some of the best bows in the world are made by guys posting here,, I have been posting since early days on Leatherwall, and have seen guys get offended and drop off many times before,, this can be a tough crowd,,guys here have devoted a large part of their lives to making bows, and really know what they are talking about,, and back it up with  quality and performance that   speaks for itself,,
I will add that I read when looking at the specs,, it says" they clearly out perfrom every other bow,,"
that just wouldnt be the case with numbers posted,,,,, and may be the reason for some of the negative response  that has occured,,

[sleek]

This will be my fourth and last post here.  Obviously, some of you cannot read very well or understand what you are reading.  I stand on every word on my website.  I have never said I invented fire hardening.  A "unique fire hardening method?"  Yes.  A method that will "revolutionize" how white wood bows are made?   The three of us think so and do not think for one minute that we have not read everything that is available to the public.  Did I know of Marc's methods - absolutely.  Was I using any of Marc's methods when I began to realize something different?  Absolutely Not!  I, like Thad, am part Native American, 21%.  I know the names and burial sites of my ancestors who suffered the mistreatment and horrors of the Trail of Tears.  When I stumbled upon my findings, I was practicing the arts of my ancestors and Not Marc's!  My people were applying heat to bows long before Marc came on the scene and I was very well aware of that before I ever knew Marc existed.  But yet, I still acknowledged modern heat treatment on my website and will do so on my DVD.  The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways.  My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else.  The greatest benefit of what I am doing is that moisture management becomes obsolete.  White wood bows made with my method will not have anymore moisture concerns than Osage.  I can spot the exact same Osage bow five (5) pounds and still out shoot it easily with much less hand shock.
While it seems that some here may be used to people referring to them as thieves, liars and charlatans, we are not.
Sleek and others, you all need to stay in your lane on the marketing.   I majored in Marketing and Economics and I have five (5) patents.  I have very successfully developed, pioneered and marketed several products nationally and internationally all the way to Walmart and the US Government.  And you are trying to tell me about marketing?  You are so far out of your league, you do not have a clue where the ball field is.  The most I have seen from you is a YouTube with a dozen or so viewers.  Great stuff.
There are some extremely talented bowyers on this board, wish I was as good as them, but many of you should not flatter yourselves so much just because you are a part of this little gang.  You are not nearly as good as you think you are. We had originally hoped to come to this board with what we brought to the table and be part of learning everything there is to know about this. I do not claim to know all the answers to the many questions there will be. Some on this board have been receptive and cordial and we appreciate it.  Considering the attitudes of many of you though, I do not have the appetite and have other things to do and think about like a hurricane at this moment.  Badger, I welcome and hope you will reach out to me.  What Thad said. No need to reply.  Not interested. Gone for good.

Wait hold on, I just read what you wrote  again
 You state that because we dont agree with you  our reading comprehension is faulty? And how is that supposed to motivate me to want your information?

As for you feeling like we are stating you claimed to invent fire hardening... We aren't saying that. You are, by omission of precious details. You say you use heat to make bows better, buy your dvd to see how! Well duh, we got that figured out already, thank you Marc for putting forth effort to show how and why heat works, the science behind it, etc... Even if he didnt invent it himself, he gave us understanding of it. Your ad gives no understanding of your product. Bad advertising.  If it were GOOD advertising, you would be in such a defensive posture right now would you?

You claim you are native and therefore we should value your opinion more? Hell, I am Scott Irish and Native, Does that mean I can drink, fight and shoot good? Your DNA doesnt make you good at something,  if it did, I'd be a rocket surgeon   as my grandfather worked on the Apollo project. Trail of tears had nothing to do with your DVD and your attempt to connect the two is disgraceful and disingenuous.  You have lost any Intellectual argument when you try to win an argument with emotion rather than logic. So blatant and obvious at that. And I am supposed to think you are smart?  Then you state you were following the ways of your people, not Marc's. That makes it YOURS and not Marc's? That gives you rights to it more than him? 21 % native... so proud. Hey, high five to your mom and dad for copulating,  you had nothing to do with it, so why are you claiming it to establish your pathos? More like 21% naive.

3 years of methodology... and you say we aren't as good as you. I may have 3 years of bow building if you add every minute I spent making and studying it over the last 9 years. I'm not new, and dont toot my own horn, though I do try to get recognition for accomplishments.... by actually accomplishing them.

All I asked for validation of your claims was some some FPS. You respond with attacking an early first attempt I made at you tube? Seriously? Hell, I cant post images on here well, modern tech ain't my thing, yet  because I'm deficant there, that means my ill reception of your whining and bad advertising is invalid? If that's the case, IF I HAD liked your advertising and sympathized with your plight here, it would be an equally invalid a point of view for the same reasons you state that it isn't valid.  You boxed yourself in intellectually there. Aside from that, I'm not the guy who claims to have a master's degree in advertising,  or who's responsibility it is to actually do the advertising.  That's yours and you sucked. Plain and simple. Be glad I'm polite enough to be honest. That's rare these days. Appreciate me.

You state white wood bows can be built without the hand shock of osage. Pardner, my osage doesnt have handshock. That went away when Lebhuntfish, who is less experienced than I am, TAUGHT me through logical explanation ( see, I can learn from younger knowledge) how to time my limbs. I'm a better bowyer for it and appreciate him. Point is, if you have hand shock, you need to build better bows, not better heat treat. Heat wont fix handshock, and moisten doesnt cause it. I can build a green wood bow fresh cut that has no handshock, wont shoot fast, but wont have any shock. Your arguments  give away you lack of ability and knowledge in bow making. I'm not nocking you for having trouble with certain things, just saying the obvious here. It's like putting finish on a bow, you want to present it, but only when you polish it do you discover the flaws in your work. Be grateful, improve, and move on.
There should be no difference in performance between osage and any suitable white wood, for a bow. If there is, you didnt do your job well.

Also, learn to present an argument better, you are very deficient in that skill set as well.

[sleek]

thanks Pat, those numbers are very respectable,, but in line with what guys are shooting here, and not as high as some,, also no mention on how many times the bow had been shot,, which will effect chrono results as well,, also from Test DC had made,, he says the bows shoot a bit faster with machine than fingers,, dont really have much experience with that,, I think I remember Steve saying his release was a bit faster than machine,,,so seeing that info,, I still am of the opinion,, some of the best bows in the world are made by guys posting here,, I have been posting since early days on Leatherwall, and have seen guys get offended and drop off many times before,, this can be a tough crowd,,guys here have devoted a large part of their lives to making bows, and really know what they are talking about,, and back it up with  quality and performance that   speaks for itself,,
I will add that I read when looking at the specs,, it says" they clearly out perfrom every other bow,,"
that just wouldnt be the case with numbers posted,,,,, and may be the reason for some of the negative response  that has occured,,

What numbers? I didnt see any and that's what I want to see

[SLIMBOB]

If your black, you know how to dance.
If your French, you know about wines.
If Italian, cooking comes natural.
Irish are easily angered.
Germans know beer.
Canadians, they are just naturally friendly.
Native Americans, it’s bows.
This  attitude drives me to drink (being Scottish).

[bradsmith2010]

Sleek its  under performance  ,, after you click on the bows

[sleek]

If your black, you know how to dance.
If your French, you know about wines.
If Italian, cooking comes natural.
Irish are easily angered.
Germans know beer.
Canadians, they are just naturally friendly.
Native Americans, it’s bows.
This  attitude drives me to drink (being Scottish).

I'm laughing at this in multi linquistical toungs, as I was born having the gift for Scott, Irish  Cherokee, and Seminole.

[sleek]

He isn't advertising any numbers that I dont get on average when I'm NOT building a super short bow, and most of those are in that ballpark anyway.  I can get his performance with less wood ( osage ) than he is getting with longer lengths.

Maybe I need to write a book on how I do it LMAO...

I can get this level of performance from elm with a simple MARC STYLE heat treat, no problem, never noticed a moisture problem from my bows, just a little tallow fixes that problem in the rain even. I'd like to challenge this guy in a head to head build off to show he is full of BS at this point  based 100% off the numbers he is showing. MAYBE he can get better moisture resistant bows, but that's solving a problem that doesn't exist to any large degree... except hickory.... maybe. Tallow goes along ways.


170s and 160s fps... Those are rookie numbers... you gadda get those numbers up if that's top level performance for you.

Good averages though for a typical hunting bow.

[bradsmith2010]

well Sleek one bow shot 182 I think,, but that was a 60# bow with 520 grain arrow,, so that would put it in the 170's,,10 gpp,,,

[Deerhunter21]

This will be my fourth and last post here.  Obviously, some of you cannot read very well or understand what you are reading.  I stand on every word on my website.  I have never said I invented fire hardening.  A "unique fire hardening method?"  Yes.  A method that will "revolutionize" how white wood bows are made?   The three of us think so and do not think for one minute that we have not read everything that is available to the public.  Did I know of Marc's methods - absolutely.  Was I using any of Marc's methods when I began to realize something different?  Absolutely Not!  I, like Thad, am part Native American, 21%.  I know the names and burial sites of my ancestors who suffered the mistreatment and horrors of the Trail of Tears.  When I stumbled upon my findings, I was practicing the arts of my ancestors and Not Marc's!  My people were applying heat to bows long before Marc came on the scene and I was very well aware of that before I ever knew Marc existed.  But yet, I still acknowledged modern heat treatment on my website and will do so on my DVD.  The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways.  My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else.  The greatest benefit of what I am doing is that moisture management becomes obsolete.  White wood bows made with my method will not have anymore moisture concerns than Osage.  I can spot the exact same Osage bow five (5) pounds and still out shoot it easily with much less hand shock.
While it seems that some here may be used to people referring to them as thieves, liars and charlatans, we are not.
Sleek and others, you all need to stay in your lane on the marketing.   I majored in Marketing and Economics and I have five (5) patents.  I have very successfully developed, pioneered and marketed several products nationally and internationally all the way to Walmart and the US Government.  And you are trying to tell me about marketing?  You are so far out of your league, you do not have a clue where the ball field is.  The most I have seen from you is a YouTube with a dozen or so viewers.  Great stuff.
There are some extremely talented bowyers on this board, wish I was as good as them, but many of you should not flatter yourselves so much just because you are a part of this little gang.  You are not nearly as good as you think you are. We had originally hoped to come to this board with what we brought to the table and be part of learning everything there is to know about this. I do not claim to know all the answers to the many questions there will be. Some on this board have been receptive and cordial and we appreciate it.  Considering the attitudes of many of you though, I do not have the appetite and have other things to do and think about like a hurricane at this moment.  Badger, I welcome and hope you will reach out to me.  What Thad said. No need to reply.  Not interested. Gone for good.

Wait hold on, I just read what you wrote  again
 You state that because we dont agree with you  our reading comprehension is faulty? And how is that supposed to motivate me to want your information?

As for you feeling like we are stating you claimed to invent fire hardening... We aren't saying that. You are, by omission of precious details. You say you use heat to make bows better, buy your dvd to see how! Well duh, we got that figured out already, thank you Marc for putting forth effort to show how and why heat works, the science behind it, etc... Even if he didnt invent it himself, he gave us understanding of it. Your ad gives no understanding of your product. Bad advertising.  If it were GOOD advertising, you would be in such a defensive posture right now would you?

You claim you are native and therefore we should value your opinion more? Hell, I am Scott Irish and Native, Does that mean I can drink, fight and shoot good? Your DNA doesnt make you good at something,  if it did, I'd be a rocket surgeon   as my grandfather worked on the Apollo project. Trail of tears had nothing to do with your DVD and your attempt to connect the two is disgraceful and disingenuous.  You have lost any Intellectual argument when you try to win an argument with emotion rather than logic. So blatant and obvious at that. And I am supposed to think you are smart?  Then you state you were following the ways of your people, not Marc's. That makes it YOURS and not Marc's? That gives you rights to it more than him? 21 % native... so proud. Hey, high five to your mom and dad for copulating,  you had nothing to do with it, so why are you claiming it to establish your pathos? More like 21% naive.

3 years of methodology... and you say we aren't as good as you. I may have 3 years of bow building if you add every minute I spent making and studying it over the last 9 years. I'm not new, and dont toot my own horn, though I do try to get recognition for accomplishments.... by actually accomplishing them.

All I asked for validation of your claims was some some FPS. You respond with attacking an early first attempt I made at you tube? Seriously? Hell, I cant post images on here well, modern tech ain't my thing, yet  because I'm deficant there, that means my ill reception of your whining and bad advertising is invalid? If that's the case, IF I HAD liked your advertising and sympathized with your plight here, it would be an equally invalid a point of view for the same reasons you state that it isn't valid.  You boxed yourself in intellectually there. Aside from that, I'm not the guy who claims to have a master's degree in advertising,  or who's responsibility it is to actually do the advertising.  That's yours and you sucked. Plain and simple. Be glad I'm polite enough to be honest. That's rare these days. Appreciate me.

You state white wood bows can be built without the hand shock of osage. Pardner, my osage doesnt have handshock. That went away when Lebhuntfish, who is less experienced than I am, TAUGHT me through logical explanation ( see, I can learn from younger knowledge) how to time my limbs. I'm a better bowyer for it and appreciate him. Point is, if you have hand shock, you need to build better bows, not better heat treat. Heat wont fix handshock, and moisten doesnt cause it. I can build a green wood bow fresh cut that has no handshock, wont shoot fast, but wont have any shock. Your arguments  give away you lack of ability and knowledge in bow making. I'm not nocking you for having trouble with certain things, just saying the obvious here. It's like putting finish on a bow, you want to present it, but only when you polish it do you discover the flaws in your work. Be grateful, improve, and move on.
There should be no difference in performance between osage and any suitable white wood, for a bow. If there is, you didnt do your job well.

Also, learn to present an argument better, you are very deficient in that skill set as well.

Well sleek, a bit blunt but yes i agree. I said that im going to save my questions but still this is true. Im excited to see if we will learn anything from the dvd  or if its a dud. Maybe it will be good to explain the basics. You change your tactics for what your selling, even if its the same information. You could sell it saying it could add on to what we know, you could sell it as something new or as your view on the topic. But it needs to fit what your selling.