Author Topic: New heat treating method??  (Read 68174 times)

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Offline Halfbow

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #240 on: September 04, 2019, 02:55:43 am »
The thing is he was willing to talk about anything and everything except the one thing we were asking about. Inspiration for doing something and the evidence you actually did that thing or two different topics. We all were discussing his claims and he came along maybe not to stir up trouble but to try to get us to go along with what he was saying without providing anything of value. Also lied about the contents of his site and got called out for it. I don’t hate the man and I have nothing against him personally (I don’t know him) but the way he was dodging the questions seems to tell us everything we need to know. The burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim.

I wish he would tell us, but he's avoiding giving away the information he's trying to sell. I'm perplexed by this expectation that he would freely spill the goods. Would be pretty stupid business. I also wish to see some good science on his method of heat treating vs others, as many were asking for. I'm guessing it just doesn't exist to show at the moment. Good science on bows is hard.

He did not lie about the contents of his site. He was accused of saying that he rediscovered fire hardening. He denied ever saying that. Then a quote from his website was thrown at him, "But what if there was a technique that would make whitewood bows immune to moisture? What if this technique was forgotten after archery was supplanted by the modern firearm? And what if, centuries later, this technique was rediscovered by a modern primitive archer with an innate curiosity of ancient ways? That’s what led to experimenting with fire-hardening that gave birth to Fire Dancer Bows"

People here fixated on the fact that the word "forgotten" is in that quote. But that quote is not talking about heat treating. It is talking about his specific method of heat treating. Saying that his specific method was forgotten is not saying that heat treating was forgotten. This is where reading comprehension starts to be criticized.

I wouldn’t expect to instantly see the best bows ever either, but he does keep saying that they are. We’re not the ones setting impossible standards. This would be a very different conversation without these kinds of bold claims. Claims and information don’t  deserve the benefit of the doubt. People  do, but not when they say they are doing the best work around. That kind of talk has to be earned or proven if you don’t wanna raise some dust

Firstly, I agree that his claims are very hyperbolic, and I wish they weren't. But it's worth noting that he also says his bows weren't built to be speed demons. He didn't claim to have the fastest bows.

Offline Deerhunter21

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #241 on: September 04, 2019, 07:24:31 am »
I think Halfbows right. we arnt going to get anyghing from this thread but more criticizm. as much as I would like to say what I think is wrong about his methods (or as much as I know), Its just given us more questions. lets try to answer them in other threads first then we work forward to other questions till we figure something out.
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

Offline SLIMBOB

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #242 on: September 04, 2019, 07:40:36 am »
"Firstly, I agree that his claims are very hyperbolic, and I wish they weren't. But it's worth noting that he also says his bows weren't built to be speed demons. He didn't claim to have the fastest bows."

Believe he did make that claim.  Something to the effect of he will let you take an Osage bow, and spot you five pounds, and out shoot you.  That seems to me to be a pretty clear claim as to the speed advantage his bows allegedly posses.
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Offline sleek

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #243 on: September 04, 2019, 08:08:41 am »
The thing is he was willing to talk about anything and everything except the one thing we were asking about. Inspiration for doing something and the evidence you actually did that thing or two different topics. We all were discussing his claims and he came along maybe not to stir up trouble but to try to get us to go along with what he was saying without providing anything of value. Also lied about the contents of his site and got called out for it. I don’t hate the man and I have nothing against him personally (I don’t know him) but the way he was dodging the questions seems to tell us everything we need to know. The burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim.

I wish he would tell us, but he's avoiding giving away the information he's trying to sell. I'm perplexed by this expectation that he would freely spill the goods. Would be pretty stupid business. I also wish to see some good science on his method of heat treating vs others, as many were asking for. I'm guessing it just doesn't exist to show at the moment. Good science on bows is hard.

He did not lie about the contents of his site. He was accused of saying that he rediscovered fire hardening. He denied ever saying that. Then a quote from his website was thrown at him, "But what if there was a technique that would make whitewood bows immune to moisture? What if this technique was forgotten after archery was supplanted by the modern firearm? And what if, centuries later, this technique was rediscovered by a modern primitive archer with an innate curiosity of ancient ways? That’s what led to experimenting with fire-hardening that gave birth to Fire Dancer Bows"

People here fixated on the fact that the word "forgotten" is in that quote. But that quote is not talking about heat treating. It is talking about his specific method of heat treating. Saying that his specific method was forgotten is not saying that heat treating was forgotten. This is where reading comprehension starts to be criticized.

I wouldn’t expect to instantly see the best bows ever either, but he does keep saying that they are. We’re not the ones setting impossible standards. This would be a very different conversation without these kinds of bold claims. Claims and information don’t  deserve the benefit of the doubt. People  do, but not when they say they are doing the best work around. That kind of talk has to be earned or proven if you don’t wanna raise some dust

Firstly, I agree that his claims are very hyperbolic, and I wish they weren't. But it's worth noting that he also says his bows weren't built to be speed demons. He didn't claim to have the fastest bows.

I wasn't asking him to spill the goods, just for proof that there were any. I wanted before and after performance. But, instead I got lectured on the trail of tears. That left me to go to his site and try and figure out how I can benefit from what he is selling. Seems to be a few points. Water resistant,  lower mass, no handshock, faster bows.

None of that offers any proof of those claims. I didnt think it unreasonable to ask for before and after stats. That wouldn't give anything they were selling away, and in fact, should have been part of their marketing.  Instead, he puckered up and walked out.
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Offline sleek

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #244 on: September 04, 2019, 08:11:36 am »
"Firstly, I agree that his claims are very hyperbolic, and I wish they weren't. But it's worth noting that he also says his bows weren't built to be speed demons. He didn't claim to have the fastest bows."

Believe he did make that claim.  Something to the effect of he will let you take an Osage bow, and spot you five pounds, and out shoot you.  That seems to me to be a pretty clear claim as to the speed advantage his bows allegedly posses.

I'd take him up on that, Hell, I'd spot HIM those 5 pounds and still smoke him, with one of my short bows no less, with 10GPP.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

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Offline SLIMBOB

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #245 on: September 04, 2019, 08:37:00 am »
I don’t think they will be interested in that at all. That is the reason for my skepticism.  If these claims are true, and you can back them up, you would enthusiastically engage folks on this forum for the instant credibility. That would vault your DVD sales dramatically. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If neither, pound on the table and yell like hell.
Liberty, In God We Trust, E Pluribus Unum.  Distinctly American Values.

Offline sleek

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #246 on: September 04, 2019, 09:32:26 am »
I don’t think they will be interested in that at all. That is the reason for my skepticism.  If these claims are true, and you can back them up, you would enthusiastically engage folks on this forum for the instant credibility. That would vault your DVD sales dramatically. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If neither, pound on the table and yell like hell.

EXACTLY

That's why I said his advertising was awful.  Can judge the content until I see it.  When was this DVD supposed to come out? I'm kinda looking forward to seeing it.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Deerhunter21

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #247 on: September 04, 2019, 09:35:30 am »
I don’t think they will be interested in that at all. That is the reason for my skepticism.  If these claims are true, and you can back them up, you would enthusiastically engage folks on this forum for the instant credibility. That would vault your DVD sales dramatically. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If neither, pound on the table and yell like hell.

Ha! yea! wish he would actually try to tell us the facts.
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #248 on: September 04, 2019, 10:15:00 am »
Naturally I have some questions about this whole thing.  He claims he never got the idea from me (directly?) and that is entirely possible but that doesn't mean he didn't get it from someone who got it from someone else and so on back to my original research.  I have always been quite free with what I have done on heat-treating with the bowyer community.  His videos clearly show a process that, to me, would most certainly NOT have been used by his ancestors, at least it would take one heck of a lot of evidence to convince me otherwise.
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

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bownarra

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #249 on: September 04, 2019, 04:21:39 pm »
White lightening :)   Nice bow, one glance tells me she is a screamer :)

This thread is interesting if only to see the usual's acting in their usual manner...
Halfbow's comments reflect my thoughts on all this and are written more eloquently than I could manage.
i'll buy a copy and see for myself. 

Offline PatM

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #250 on: September 04, 2019, 04:23:33 pm »
Aren't you a usual acting in your usual manner? ;)

Offline SLIMBOB

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #251 on: September 04, 2019, 04:38:14 pm »
Well said Pat.  A little self reflection...
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Offline Nasr

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #252 on: September 04, 2019, 04:51:34 pm »
Does anyone know when his dvd will be out? Was there any announcement on it?

 

Offline sleek

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #253 on: September 04, 2019, 05:11:25 pm »
White lightening :)   Nice bow, one glance tells me she is a screamer :)

This thread is interesting if only to see the usual's acting in their usual manner...
Halfbow's comments reflect my thoughts on all this and are written more eloquently than I could manage.
i'll buy a copy and see for myself.

Were you a member here before?

The neat thing about these public forums is the social interaction. I'd appreciate being called out and challenged for claims, and I have been in the past. I didnt argue, I put forward what I was asked. On a Facebook group I'm on, that wasn't good enough and I got my feelings a little hurt I will be honest, especially because I valued the guys opinion who was bashing me, but I didnt take my ball and go home. I guess it will just take a bit more proof to solidify my points in some folks minds.... or maybe I'm hardheaded lol.

Cant be tinder skinned and loud mouthed all at the same time.
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Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline PatM

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #254 on: September 04, 2019, 05:32:47 pm »
You should be able to recognize who bownarra is.  He joins and then quits and takes his ball home on the regular.