Reflex and Set

[Woodely]

If reflex is induced by heat or steam and  during the tiller/building process a certain amount of the reflex is lost is that considered set.

[Badger]

  Yes, but it is not as simple as it might seem. How set acts is what is important. If a bow looses some reflex after tillering but holds the same shape once unbraced without regaining some of the reflex it is usually pretty solid and doesn't have as much hysteresis as a bow that comes back after unbracing and sitting for a while. The less it comes back the better. In most cases you are better off to induce less reflex from the start and try to keep what you have than using a lot of reflex in hopes of keeping maybe 1/3 of it.

[SLIMBOB]

I believe it is, most certainly. However, the builder is the only one who knows it’s taken it and it’s unavoidable. I agree with steve’s take on it’s impact.

[Dances with squirrels]

Yes. That's set.

[Woodely]

Yes. That's set.

Ya butt,  there is a difference as well between glued in reflex and reflex done with heat and steam.  Basically I can see that I gained some set in the mid limb section which was flat and some set at the tip end where I heated in some reflex.   The total set was about 1".   Would the bow have got 1" of set if I had not heated in the reflex.  Trick question ya think..?  All I know is the bow shoots and feels really good and has excellent cast,  best bow I have ever wrapped my hands around so far...   Wood FG or otherwise.

[Badger]

Yes. That's set.

Ya butt,  there is a difference as well between glued in reflex and reflex done with heat and steam.  Basically I can see that I gained some set in the mid limb section which was flat and some set at the tip end where I heated in some reflex.   The total set was about 1".   Would the bow have got 1" of set if I had not heated in the reflex.  Trick question ya think..?  All I know is the bow shoots and feels really good and has excellent cast,  best bow I have ever wrapped my hands around so far...   Wood FG or otherwise.

   1" set is good!

[PatM]

I wouldn't say it's  quite the same.   The shape of the wood in the form it was a tree is its starting point in my opinion.

 Many straight trees will dry into reflex.

[Badger]

   I just finished one this morning, self bow. I heated in 5" reflex. 1 1/2" came out in the very early stages of tillering. Was it set or did it just pull out? I lost another 1" on the way to full draw. So technically the bow took 2 1/2" set but I bet 1 1/2" would actually describe it more accurately.

[leonwood]

The last year or so I stopped heating in more than 2 inches of reflex while heat treating. I usually did about 5 and lost about 3 when shot in. Now I mostly add about 2" of heated reflex and regularly end up losing less than 1". I actually have less set doing it this way.

[SLIMBOB]

Perfect world, give me that stave that has 2 inches of natural reflex, and it finishes out with the bow having nearly 2 inches of reflex without having induced any.  I have been lucky enough to have made a few of them.  The rest, the vast majority, had reflex induced and took some degree of set, losing some of the induced reflex, 30 to 50% on the good ones.  100% or more on the dogs.  Aside from those with visible string follow, the dogs, on the rest you would be hard pressed on a visual inspection, to identify which were "natural" reflex and which were induced.  I know as I built them, and like most others, I measure this from start to finish.  Those that lost 50% are in most cases good sweet shooting bows, while those that took little to no set are exceptional in my mind.  And rare.  For me anyway.

[Woodely]

Perfect world, give me that stave that has 2 inches of natural reflex, and it finishes out with the bow having nearly 2 inches of reflex without having induced any.  I have been lucky enough to have made a few of them.  The rest, the vast majority, had reflex induced and took some degree of set, losing some of the induced reflex, 30 to 50% on the good ones.  100% or more on the dogs.  Aside from those with visible string follow, the dogs, on the rest you would be hard pressed on a visual inspection, to identify which were "natural" reflex and which were induced.  I know as I built them, and like most others, I measure this from start to finish.  Those that lost 50% are in most cases good sweet shooting bows, while those that took little to no set are exceptional in my mind.  And rare.  For me anyway.

[quote From Badger]
  1" set is good

That pretty well wraps up.  I have one bow that has about 1 1/2" of natural reflex and its doggy,  the cast is slow and weak.

[Badger]

The last year or so I stopped heating in more than 2 inches of reflex while heat treating. I usually did about 5 and lost about 3 when shot in. Now I mostly add about 2" of heated reflex and regularly end up losing less than 1". I actually have less set doing it this way.

   Same with me in most cases anymore. I don't think wood does well with too much reflex generally speaking.

[Bayou Ben]

I agree with the points of discussion so far.  Good stuff. 
I look at it from a microscopic level, meaning if wood fibers are irreversibly damaged then set has occurred.  If perry or heat induced reflex has pulled out and no fibers are damaged, I wouldn't consider that set.  The problem is that we have no way to determine if you are merely overcoming glue shear forces or if fibers are damaged.  It can be reasonably assumed that there's some damage to fibers as induced reflex is being pulled out.
I think you guys building bow after bow actively experimenting with different amounts of reflex are getting closer to finding that balance.  I agree with Steve's response below.  1.5" of fiber damaging set and 1" of pulled out reflex would be most accurate in describing the situation.   

   I just finished one this morning, self bow. I heated in 5" reflex. 1 1/2" came out in the very early stages of tillering. Was it set or did it just pull out? I lost another 1" on the way to full draw. So technically the bow took 2 1/2" set but I bet 1 1/2" would actually describe it more accurately.

 

[DC]

Yeah, I'm beginning to think this wasn't such a good idea maybe i should re-purpose this caul