Pitch for hafting question

[willie]

I have been collecting spruce pitch to use for hafting. actually what I have collected is more like hardened lumps of dried sap from where branches have been broken off. I read somewhere (probably here at PA) that it dissolves well in denatured alcohol, and Indeed it does.

Now I have a jar of dissolved pitch that I need to reduce to a more workable state. Taking the cover off and keeping it in a warm place has allowed it to loose quite a bit of volume, and I suppose that at some point it will become some sort of sticky mess.

Does anyone have some tried and true techniques for reducing my "syrup" to an easily workable state?  or suggest how I might be able to create something like the block of rosin that one sees sold for violin bows?

other suggestions are welcome also.

thanks

willie

[BowEd]

Have you seen Iowabow and Isaacs' pitch glue tutoral in the primitive skills section?On a U tube I believe.

[Pat B]

I dissolve hard pitch in alcohol and use it as a varnish for sealing sinew wraps and some arrow shafts. For pitch glue for hafting, melt(be careful, highly volatile) the pitch and remove bark pieces, etc if any add bees wax and finely ground charcoal. I use enough beeswax so I can barely push a finger nail in it when cooled. Add the charcoal dust to give it more body. I don't use measurements. Sorry.

[Hawkdancer]

Listen to PatB!  That is how I am going to do it,  got lots of sawdust, maybe some charcoal dust, and beeswax!  Patience is the challenge!  Double boiler, and outdoors!  Camp stove works.
Hawkdancer

[jeffp51]

You can also use a heat gun to melt the sap-it prevents you from stetting fire to it.  I put a layer of foil over a tin can. Then create a dish in the foil to hold the pitch. Poke little holes in the foil with a toothpick. As you melt the pitch it drops through the foil to the can below. Then add beeswax and charcoal as mentioned by others. Soft, Non hardened pitch seems to work better than the dry stuff.

[Aaron H]

The alcohol is going to continue to slowly evaporate, and your mixture will get thicker.   You may have just added a bit too much alcohol

[gutpile]

I haft my points with hide glue.. then I wrap with sinew after glue dries then pitch to waterproof... I mix my pitch with beeswax and ash..

[willie]

Thanks guys, I guess I just made varnish

i think I will try a double boiler and see what happens........... and will post back results

[Hawkdancer]

It should boil out pretty well.  Be sure to post if you find out how to make rosin blocks, Jacie used a lot of it.  I am going to try to make a mold based on her violin blocks, I think the candle mold material would work.
Hawkdancer

[willie]

Hawk the rosin block package I have says its a mix with beeswax and castor bean oil. but the proportions are unknown.

I found a small crok pot at the second hand store for a dollar, and it seems to reduce the mix down pretty well. I think the alcohol is gone and the pitch is getting reduced some as the turpentine or lighter natural  volitiles are being driven off. going to reduce sparingly from here on, hoping to find a good consistency that is not too brittle when cold and not too soft when warm.

I have seen recipes where charcoal or rabbit poop is used to stiffen what I assume to be a mix that might be too soft. does anyone know if the additives add anything or is  just plain pitch of the right consistency as good?

what would be nice to  find is something from back when, a primitive formula or if anyone has seen where a primitive arrow or dart was analyzed.

[Hawkdancer]

I think I will try flaxseed oil instead of castor bean oil - that stuff is poisonous!  Flaxseed oil is food grade, I use it in my spoon finish.  I think charcoal is a bit better than rabbit poop merely from my background in health and as a medic.  Of course rubber gloves help! .  I will try to find a good formula for bow rosin.  I think a start might be 4 parts pitch, 1 part beeswax, and 1 part oil!  Neat idea about the little crockpot!  I'll have to look for one, it might work several different projects.
Hawkdancer

[DC]

I think the idea was to start with hard dried pitch. The beeswax takes the edge off the brittleness and the rabbit dung acts as fiber(think fiberglass). I may be wrong.

[Pat B]

You are exactly right, DC. Dried rabbit or deer poo, fine saw dust all do the same as the finely ground charcoal.

[willie]

From another website. Some recipes for cutlers resin, used by knifemakers for attaching handles.

fillers range from poop to brick and stone dust to wood ashes.

I found an excellent post on Cutlers resin on Leatherworker.net by someone named "Knife Knut". Here's a link to the post CUTLERS RESIN POST. I tried to contact the author to properly credit him, or her, but have not heard back yet. If I do, I'll add their name. (the author is John Robert Mott, email JohnMott.SC@gmail.com)

 

The author of the post did a lot of research on this. Here's a copy of the posting (some of the links are broken, but the references may still be valid):

 

"The Old Recipies:

I have found There is much conjecture and error in current sources compared with old sources, which is one of the reasons for my search for multiple older sources. At this time, all of my older sources come from Google Books. Apparently reciepts has been replaced by the word recipie in modern word usage. Redundant recipies will not be posted from multiple older sources ( they are often repeated from source to source), as I will link to the sources, and so the sources listed are by no means exaustive. Text will copied and pasted as these references have passed into public domain.

 

Wrinkles and recipes: compiled from the Scientific American. A collection of ... edited by Park Benjamin

http://books.google....as_maxy_is=1860

Cutlers': (1) Pitch 4 parts, resin 4, tallow2, and brick-dust 2. (2) Resin 4, beeswax 1, brickdust 1. (3) Resin 16, hot whiting 1, wax 1. This is used for fastening blades in handles

 

 

Chambers' encyclopædia: A dictionary of universal knowledge, Volume 3 By William Chambers, Robert Chambers

http://books.google....20resin&f=false

Cutlers' Cement, used for fixing knives and forks

in handles, is made of equal weights of resin and brick-dust melted together; or, for a superior quality, 4 parts of resin, 1 of beeswax, and 1 of brick-dust.

 

 

 

The Working man's friend, and family instructor, Volumes 1-2

http://books.google....20resin&f=false

Cutlers' Cement, to fix knives and forks In tlieir handles. Black rosin, four ounces; beeswax, one ounce ; well-dried and finely-powdered brick dust, one ounce. Melt, and blend the ingredients intimately, and use in a liquid state. Thia will be found useful in families, as many, even of the best knives and forks aie not rivited into the handles. At. the same time, persons ihould avoid plunging- the handles into hot water, or exposing them to heat.

 

 

 

Workshop Receipts: for manufacturers and scientific amateurs, Volume 1

http://books.google....AAJ&output=text

Cutlers'.—This is the name given to various kinds of cement used for fastening knives, etc., in their handles.

 

(1) A very firm cement is made of 4 parts resin, 1 of beeswax, into which, when melted, 1 part of fine brickdust is stirred. It adheres with great firmness.

 

(2) Take powdered resin, and mix with it a small quantity of powdered chalk, whiting, or slaked lime, Fill the hole in the handle with the mixture, heat the tang of the knife or fork, and thrust in. When cold, it will be securely fastened.

 

(3) Take 1 lb. resin and 8 oz. sulphur, melt together, form into bars, or when cold reduce to powder ; 1 part of the powder is to be mixed with 1/2 part of iron filings, brickdust or fine sand ; fill the cavity of the handle with the mixture, and insert the tang, previously heated.

 

(4) Pitch, 4 parts ; resin, 4 ; tallow, 2 ; brickdust, 2. Melt the first three ingredients, and add the brickdust hot and finely powdered.

 

(5) Chopped hair, flax, hemp or tow. mixed with powdered resin and applied as above.

 

(6) 16 oz. rosin, 16 oz. hot whiting, 1 oz. wax. (7) 5 parts pitch, 1 wood-ashes, 1 hard tallow, melted together.

 

( 4 lb. black rosin melted with 1 lb. beeswax, and 1 lb. red hot whiting added.

 

(9) 16 oz. rosin, 8 oz. sulphur ; melt, and when cool reduce to powder. Mix with this some fine sand or brickdust, and use as stated.

 

(10) Take a portion of a quill, put it into the handle, warm the tang, and insert it into the quill in the handle and press it firmly. This is a simple method, and answers the purpose required very well.

 

 

 

New Recipies

Here are contemporary recipies that are not from primary sources.

 

Cutler's resin- any recipes?

http://forums.dfoggk...?showtopic=1403

5 parts pitch

1 part beeswax (tallow can replace this-available from your butcher)

1 part filler (wood dust, ash, metal dust, etc)

 

http://www.marquis-k...u/mt/000646.htm

8 oz pine pitch, 1/4 cup carnauba wax and 4 oz of beeswax,

 

 

Making Pitch Pine glue or cutlers resin...

5 oz Pitch pine resin

1 oz beeswax

1/4 oz carnuba

1 oz powdered charcoal

poured it onto a sheet of baking paper and let it just spread out under gravity. I kept an eye on it, and as it started to cool to the texture of putty, I rolled it up into cigars

 

Pine pitch is the key

http://www.bladeforu...046&postcount=5

1/2 lb of pine pitch

1/4 lb of beeswax

1/4 cup of flaked carnauba wax

 

 

Glue Recipies

http://www.knives.co...pies_glues.html

Cutlers Cement

 

Pine Resin, 8 parts

Sulphur, 2 parts

Iron filings, 3 parts

 

Cutlers Cement

 

Tar, 10 parts

Wood Ash, 2 part

Tallow, 1 part

 

Cutlers Cement

 

Pine Resin, 4 parts

Bees Wax, 1 part

 

 

http://www.janellest...l/adhesives.txt

8 oz pine pitch,

1/4 cup Carnauba wax

4 oz beeswax

I just ran up to the shop and tested - with my marking knife attached to

a ceiling clamp by the blade, I was able to hang from the handle with no

ill effects to the joint.

 

 

Pine Resin and Charcoal Glue Recipe

i use an empty minwax 1\2 pint can.

i fill the can about half way with pine resin

roughly 1- 1.5 tablespoons of wood ashes

roughly 1- 1.5 tablespoons of bear grease that has been thickened with wax (my bear grease is thickened to consistency of crisco vegtable shortening or a creamy peanut butter)

 

What I use is about equal parts pitch, bees wax and charcoal powder or fine saw dust.

 

Cutler's resin by Chuck Burrows, a knifemaker of stout repute:

5 parts pitch

1 part beeswax (tallow can replace this-available from your butcher)

1 part filler (wood dust, ash, metal dust, etc)"

Another forum member, Orien M, passes along some good tips

Posted March 15, 2012 (edited)

Mine is very basic:

 

Roughly equal parts by volume of pine pitch (pinon rosin, heated and strained)

and powdered charcoal (or stone, brick, metal filings...any particulate filler seems OK)

plus about 5-10% beeswax (for flexibility)

 

The exact proportions depend on climate, available materials, and probably my mood at the time . The most crucial element as far as I'm concerned is how much wax gets added, too much makes the glue tacky, while too little leaves it brittle. I add wax a little at a time, and periodically drop a little bit of resin into a pan of water to cool so I can handle it and check the texture. It should be hard to dent, but also hard to chip...a happy medium

 

In actual glue-up, this stuff is worked with hot, so it will flow...it also helps adhesion to heat all the metal parts, and to have a heat gun or other heat source handy to extend working time. It sets up very quickly once it starts to cool down.

 

A few other considerations: overcooking the glue will make it more brittle, and each time a pot is reheated it seems to change the balance somewhat, too. I prefer not to add fiber to my glues (as in the moose droppings above); in my opinion it makes the mixture too clumpy without adding much strength. This glue will stick to just about any material...it sticks tenaciously to clothing, shoes, and so on. It is usually easier to clean up after it cools, when it can be sliced or chiseled off. The last residues can be wiped off with alcohol or acetone on a rag. It is 100% waterproof, but continuous exposure to hand oils will make the glue tacky; I've not found it ideal for sealing cord-wrapped handles for this reason.

 

Unlike most all modern glues, this stuff smells truly pleasant, like a pine forest...my wife has asked me if I was burning incense!

 

A side question: besides pine-pitch glues, what other natural glues have you used, or heard of being used for knifemaking? Anyone know where to get Laha (used by Nepali Kukhri makers/Kamis), or other exotic adhesive resins online?
Edited March 15, 2012 by Orien M