fine tuning/balance question

[TimBo]

I am about done with an osage D bow.  It was shooting OK, but not great, when I noticed that shooting with the heel of my hand down more made it a LOT better.  I tried shooting with my normal grip, but a bit lower (maybe 1/2" or so), and that also works great.  I don't have a problem just shooting it as-is, but want to make sure I understand the cause of this in terms of limb balance.  So, which limb was too strong when I was using the initial grip placement (the one I planned on, not the new lower one)?  It seems to me that I am now putting more strain on the lower limb by gripping the bow a bit lower.  So, that would mean the lower was a bit too strong, yes?  Am I thinking about this right?  I really want to get better with fine tuning the last few inches of tiller and learning to feel when things are just right.  (I can't really feel one limb pulling toward me; it is only noticeable to me when shooting with the planned vs. lower grip.)  Thanks!

[PEARL DRUMS]

Your assumption is correct. If you want to use a higher wrist grip then weaken that lower limb a pound or two. It will behave the same with a higher wrist as it does now with a lower wrist.

[Bayou Ben]

It can be confusing to understand what is happening with limb strength and different points of holding the bow.  It is for me anyway. 

But I agree.  The stronger limb will lean towards the shooter.  Your bottom limb is stronger and by you putting pressure on the heal of your hand you are essentially gripping the bow lower, increasing  the leverage on the top limb and balancing out the strong bottom limb. 

[TimBo]

OK, thanks!  Once I got it all typed up, it seemed like a silly question...but I totally had myself convinced it was the other way around at first.

[bradsmith2010]

I can see where if you held the bow lower,, you would be making the bottome limb stiffer,,
and shorter,, if that was making the bow shoot better,, then it would seem the top limb might be too stiff,,
if you can hold the bow lower and it shoots good, ,then just do that,,,orientate the handle to accomodate,,

[DC]

TimBo, you say it was shooting OK but not great. Can you describe that a little better? What were you noticing? I often wonder what people mean when they say a bow isn't shooting great.

[bradsmith2010]

Good question DC,, it might be nocking point or arrow ,, not just tiller,,

[George Tsoukalas]

I finish off the tillering in front of a mirror, window at night or have someone snap a digi. Nothing mimics how you hold the bow. Jawge

[TimBo]

DC, there was initially a bit of hand shock, and once in a while the arrow would whack the bow.  But I don't have a grip on it yet, and hadn't messed with different arrows, so for testing/shooting in, it seemed OK.  I thought I was done.  But when I gripped it 1/2" lower, it just felt like..."AHHHH.  There it is!"  Hand shock became almost nil, arrow flight was perfect, and it even seemed to shoot faster.  Those last 2-3 inches of tillering have given me trouble before, so I really want to understand what is going on and make all of my bows feel that good.  I don't use a tillering tree a lot, so my final photos are always by hand.  Actually I haven't taken any using the lower grip though - I will try that and see if I can tell any difference visually. 

[DC]

Thanks. I've taken pictures and moved my hand up and down and I could definitely see a difference in the tiller. I couldn't feel any difference shooting it but that could be part of my lousy shooting (dis)ability

[TimBo]

I can see where if you held the bow lower,, you would be making the bottome limb stiffer,,
and shorter,, if that was making the bow shoot better,, then it would seem the top limb might be too stiff,,
if you can hold the bow lower and it shoots good, ,then just do that,,,orientate the handle to accomodate,,

That's what I was thinking at first.  I am shooting it where it feels good for sure.  For such a small amount, it's just a question of where I put the floppy rest and buckskin wrap - it won't require any shaping (or re-shaping). 

[burchett.donald]

Timbo,
            This may help...http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,62531.0.html
                                                                                                                                            Don

[TimBo]

Ahhh yes...I remember that thread now.  Thanks Don!  This quote from Pearl Drums on the first page is really what I was feeling - I just wanted to make sure that if didn't want to shift the grip, I knew which limb to scrape!  "Those two pics show a bow bending evenly and a bow bending evenly and balanced, great example Don. I'm sure most of us have made that 7-8 scrape adjustment on one limb and suddenly the bow feels like the nicest bow you've made. Thats when the light bulb goes on and you realize how important perfect balance is, and how close you can be with just a few scrapes."

If my tillering eye had been discerning enough, I'm sure I would have seen that my lower limb was stiffer (still need to do photos of each grip to see if I can tell visually now).  That would have been easy - duh, scrape the stiffer limb - but thinking about it from a feel perspective was making my brain hurt.  Like Brad said, my first thought was - "Well, I made the lower limb stiffer by lowering the grip, and it shoots better...so the upper limb must have been too stiff!" 

[helmet]

My thought is that the lower limb becomes stiffer if you move your hand down toward it, so you would want to weaken the top limb a bit if you didn't want to lower your grip. Have you done photos yet  with different grips? I have been struggling with these same questions recently, so am interested in what you found.

[TimBo]

Rats!  I was afraid someone would ask that...wading through the snow to take photos hasn't sounded like fun this week.  I will try to do it soon though.  Seeing photos of the difference should help improve my tiller eye.