question on tillering process

[timmyd]

need y'alls input here....so this past bow swap really opened my eyes to the process of tillering to hit a specific draw weight instead of the old "i'll just make a shooter". Hitting a specific draw weight was more difficult than it should have been for me. So here goes....I read on here where guys say to tiller at that draw weight which I take means, pull the bow to say #50 and check the tiller...than pull it back to #50 wherever that would be and check again and so forth...however, what do you guys do when you have a tiller issue? I've also read on here never pull past a tiller issue. So, say I floor tiller a stave the best that I can, slap it on the tree, pull it down a few inches and see the limbs aren't pulling evenly.  Would you fix this here or pull it to #50 and work on it there? what if that #50 is a few inches down the tree? Lets say I get the limbs pulling evenly at that location but now the bow is #40. Do you still monitor the tiller here or do you pull straight to the #50 spot and start tillering from there? I'm just confused as to the best approach for tillering. Its almost like you have to either monitor for tiller or weight.

I've also come to the conclusion for my style that it all starts on the floor tiller. If I have a good floor tiller than I have a pretty good chance of hitting my target weight. If I don't, then when the stave gets on the tree, I have too much tillering to catch up on and I miss my draw weight.

Did I make any sense at all?

[Pat B]

Always fix tillering problems ASAP! Scrape the stiff area(s), exercise well and check tiller again. If you start this early in the process when you get near the end all you have to do is reduce the weight. On a well tillered bow that is over weight long calculated scraped on each limb with exercising in between will bring down the weight evenly retaining even tiller.

[Bayou Ben]

I think you are on the right track.  Getting things right at floor tiller is very important. 
When you put the bow on the tree for the first time you shouldn't check weight just yet.  This is when you should make sure that the bow limbs are even in strength.  If it only takes 1" of travel to determine this, good.  Getting the limbs even in strength is my 1st line of business. 
Once the limbs are equal strength then you should pull till you see a problem or you get to your draw weight.  The earlier you find and fix problems the better you will be. 
That's why your more meticulous floor tiller bows are coming out better.  You fixed most of the problems at floor tiller!   

[Badger]

   One thing to keep in mind is that as long as all parts of the limb are too strong you can't really hurt the bow if it it a little out of tiller at some points. Until a few years ago I used to floor tiller and then brace it or put it on the tiller tree and finish it up. I was usually about 3/4 done after floor tillering. Now I just get them slightly flexing and then go to the tiller tree. If I am going for 50# I pull it to 50# right from the very start. As long as the limbs are not bending as much as they would on the finished bow I don't have to worry about damaging them.

[Bayou Ben]

Steve, do you find your bows now have less set than the previous way you were doing it?  So you may end up having your tiller where you want it at like 12", and you are just reducing weight from 12" out to full draw?

[Badger]

  Yes, much less set Ben, Another thing I do that I always considered a no no is that I keep them draw a bit longer than I used to. If the bow is up to it It won't take set, if not it will take set over a short period of time anyway. I think a big part of my problem in the past was not controlling the moisture as much as I should have. I still deal with that now and then but not as often. I don't like to go to any special lengths to dry them because I want them at the ambient moisture where I live anyway so I just keep them inside the house now before and during tillering. I can usually end up at about 7% or 8% if I keep them inside.

[Del the cat]

Always pull to full target weight UNLESS the tiller is uneven, in which case,remove some wood to try and correct the tiller and repeat.
So typically you'dsay have 50# target.
Pull to 40... it looks uneven, so you take a bit of wood off...
Pull to 50# at 10"
Remove wood.
Pull to 50# at 12" etc etc.
Del

[timmyd]

Del,
yes, that is my point. I'm not understanding I guess the process where guys are saying to pull to the desired weight each time...what if my target weight is #50. I'm at #40 and see a hinge developing. I would assume that I would need to fix that hinge before going any further. But if I just remove move and go to #50...remove a little more and pull again to #50..i could be hitting my weight yes but I also could be damaging my bow because I haven't completely fixed my tiller at #40. but, on the other hand, I risk missing weight if I fix the tiller at #40 because I now may be at #30. that's why the more I think about this, the more I wonder if the secret doesn't lie in putting the bow on the tree as early as possible especially if you aren't that good at floor tillering.

[Pat B]

You always relieve hinges. A hinge is the weakest part of the limb and if you don't take care of the problem it will only get worse.

[Bayou Ben]

I'm not close to Del or to Badger in the experience department, but maybe I can be a mediator here. 

If you are at 50#'s by 10", your bow is likely twice as strong as it needs to be.  You are in no way going to miss your target of 50#'s by scraping a strong spot or 2.  And what Steve is saying it that you can't hurt the bow when it's this strong and you are just pulling 50#'s. 

I'm going to have to try it this way. 

[Del the cat]

Del,
....  I would assume that I would need to fix that hinge before going any further. But if I just remove move and go to #50..

You don't need to "assume"....
I specifically said " in which case, remove a little wood (from everywhere except the weak point) to try and correct the tiller and repeat."
Meaning you fix the problem, pull again and stop if its uneven.... if it looks ok, carry on pulling to your target weight.

Putting it another way.
If you see a problem, you stop pulling and remove wood in the appropriate places to cure the problem and try again... if there is still a problem before hitting your target weight you stop again and do more work.
Never pull over target weight.
Once it is even and you are pulling target weight... you will doubtless be short of target draw length. so you remove wood evenly and repeat the process.

An example:-
Yesterday a bloke came to me with a warbow that was too heavy for him... he wanted 100# @32"
I put it on the tiller and pulled it to 100# it was at 27"
Tiller wasn't perfect so I took off a few thick spots and took the corners off the rather square back and tried it again...
100# at about 27 1/2"
lower limb was a little stiff in the middle so I took a little extra off there) but generally took wood evenly off the belly giving 100# @ 28" with the tiller looking better.
Then eased off the tips, took more off all along the belly, 100# @ 29"
Finally I cleaned it up with a scraper, he said it felt much better and was more comfortable in the hand.
Checked it on the tiller. It looked good and was about 100# at 30# which was considered close enough, as it would probably settle a bit and he was going to sand it too.
Hope that makes sense.
Del
PS. Spent 4 hours doing that, he left me some nice Yew for my trouble

[Badger]

Del, that is pretty much what I do. What I try to avoid is going to far with floor tiller and end up tillering my whole bow around one spot that is bending too much. I like to start evening it up very early on where it is still far too heavy to damage and then just keep it even throughout the process. Like I was saying as long as every part of the limb is still too strong you can't possibly hurt it by pulling to full target weight even if it is a bit uneven.

[Del the cat]

... I risk missing weight if I fix the tiller at #40 because I now may be at #30. that's why the more I think about this, the more I wonder if the secret doesn't lie in putting the bow on the tree as early as possible especially if you aren't that good at floor tillering.

Two points:-
1. Nobody dies if you miss your weight! Better to have a well tillered 45# than a badly tillerd 50# !
2. Yes I agree get it on the tiller for a quick peek ASAP. I don't really do much floor tillering other than a quick flex to see if it moves at all.
You can't really floor tiller the 100# + warbows, 'cos if you can flex 'em they are already too weak! 
Del

[Weylin]

Always fix tillering problems ASAP! Scrape the stiff area(s), exercise well and check tiller again. If you start this early in the process when you get near the end all you have to do is reduce the weight. On a well tillered bow that is over weight long calculated scraped on each limb with exercising in between will bring down the weight evenly retaining even tiller.

This is the heart of it. Everytime you remove some wood from the bow you are getting closer to your desired weight and length. So you'd better make sure that when you remove wood you're actually helping get closer to a good tiller. Do that early and you're home free, wait to late and you're in trouble. Don't wait too late to brace the bow. Of the tiller looks decent at the floor tillering stage and the taper feels good to your fingers then string it up and see what you're working with.

[George Tsoukalas]

I get the tiller right   asap.
I don't pull to target weight right away.
I have a 26" draw.
I'm usually 10 lbs under target weight at 20".
Then I ease the bow into target weight at 25".
Jawge