Author Topic: Nock point  (Read 8820 times)

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Offline DC

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Nock point
« on: August 26, 2018, 05:48:31 pm »
What is the nock point height adjustment compensating for?

Offline ntvbowyer1969

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2018, 07:14:55 pm »
Clay Hays has a great video on tuning your arrows where he explained that. Its on youtube. I think again its called tuning your bow and and arrows i am pretty sure. It also has to do with sort of the same thing spine arrows do with paradox. How non center shot bows will need lighter spine arrows to shoot around riser. The nock point on string does sort of the same thing and helps how the arrow pushes off of the shelf/hand. he said it is very important to adjust it a 1/8" at a time starting at 5/8 above shelf with a bow square then working your way down. This is what i can remember .

Offline ntvbowyer1969

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2018, 07:17:58 pm »
DC i just looked in my book marks and it is called tuning your long bow,recurve,and self bow for perfect arrow flight. I wish i knew how to share it on here but i am a "PRIMITIVE" man...lol computers confuse me..lol

Offline DC

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2018, 10:50:32 pm »
Good video but not what I'm looking for. Maybe approach it from a different tack. If I adjust the nock height on a bow for me, will it be right for everyone that uses that bow? If so is there something about the bow that determines what the nock height should be?

Offline Hrothgar

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2018, 06:28:10 am »
Hypothetical questions on a rainy day, love it.
Assuming every archer draws the arrow the same distance, and assuming every archer uses the same type of release,  I would have to believe that the nock height is good for everyone. However...not every archer draws the same distance nor uses the same release; for example, the Mediterranean draw would put an ever so slight different stress on the bow limbs compared to a pinch release.
Non human factors might include how well the bow has been tilled, and placement of the arrow shelf.
" To be, or not to be"...decisions, decisions, decisions.

Offline BowEd

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2018, 06:49:43 am »
While on a tillering tree I observe path of draw to be sure it's in a straight line.I never have problems then finding the sweet nocking point of arrow and arrow flight is always good then provided right spine arrow is used.Even when others shoot my bows provided that they grip the bow the same as me.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 07:01:53 am by BowEd »
BowEd
You got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Ed

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2018, 06:52:56 am »
"If I adjust the nock height on a bow for me, will it be right for everyone that uses that bow?" No, not for everyone. Only for those who apply pressure to the bow and string the same way that you do. It's a matter of degree... so the farther they vary from 'your way' of shooting, the farther they'll move away from a well tuned bow.

"If so is there something about the bow that determines what the nock height should be?" Yes, kind of.... there are several factors that are inextricably connected/related that together determine a bow's dynamic balance, or imbalance. The bow hand fulcrum, the string hand fulcrum(largely determined by nock point location), the strength of each limb, even static balance and some other design basics. A change in any one of them can affect one or more others and the resulting dynamic balance. All linked, all relative.

The nock point is the easiest thing to adjust after the bow is finished, so that's probably why it's been given more credence than the other factors by archers... which carries over to bow making because it's those archer's that become bowyers. But bowyers would do well to think of it a little differently, and not think of the nock point location separate from those others, as an afterthought, merely as an adjustment, or 'fix'. If you have to move your nock point around in a search for good arrow flight, there's a very, very good chance the tiller isn't best for you. I put the nock point exactly where I designed it to be, to elevate the nock end of the arrow on all bows by 1/8", and then balance the bow relative to my fulcrums, throughout the tillering process, to shooting... and expect perfect arrow flight right where I put it from the first arrow shot(unless there's an arrow spine issue). It's very rare that I have to move it afterwards... in fact I don't remember the last time. Some folks build bows backwards, imo. Reverse engineering. Why?

To reiterate my point, and perhaps dig a little deeper into the "everyone that uses the bow" thing.... since nock point height affects where an archer's fingers are on the string(the string hand fulcrum), it directly affects dynamic balance. That balance or imbalance affects arrow flight, up and down, aka porpoising. Ok, that said....

The other fulcrum is the bow hand fulcrum, and even if a second archer grips the STRING exactly as you do, if he applies pressure differently to the handle, THAT fulcrum is moved, which also affects dynamic balance, and can cause a need for the tiller at brace to be changed, OR if the bow is done, for the nock point to be moved in an attempt to affect the relative limb strength in a good way.... or perhaps he could adjust his grip on the bow handle. All linked. All relative to balance.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline Badger

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2018, 07:33:54 am »
      I think something to keep in mind is that when we take our fingers off of the string the bow suddenly forgets how we are holding the bow and how we are pulling the string. It is now responding to the arrow because the arrow is the only thing holding the string back.

Offline DC

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2018, 10:45:38 am »
If the nock point depends on tiller and balance and stuff why do we seem to always have the nock point above square? Couldn't a bow happen to be tillered so it wants the nock point below square?

Offline Badger

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2018, 11:16:19 am »
  If you tiller so your nock point is above square the arrow more or less clears the shelf or has very little of its weight on the shelf, if you tiller below the shelf will interfere with the flight.

Offline simson

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2018, 11:57:23 am »
      I think something to keep in mind is that when we take our fingers off of the string the bow suddenly forgets how we are holding the bow and how we are pulling the string. It is now responding to the arrow because the arrow is the only thing holding the string back.


I always wondered what is happening with a three fingers under release. May be the arrow gets an additional punch or momentum? Lifting above the shelf.

Simon
Bavaria, Germany

Offline DC

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2018, 11:57:39 am »
Yes, I realised that. What do you do when tillering to ensure that the nock point will be above square? Is this the reason for the lower limb being stiffer?

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2018, 02:18:32 pm »
As I said, I set it 1/8" high, sometimes less, above square, then as I'm tillering, I adjust the strength of the limbs relative to the other factors I mentioned above so that the nock point comes down a plumb line I have drawn on the wall which indicates straight travel, i.e. square to the shelf and handle. If it comes straight back, it will move straight forward upon release... which means the arrow will fly straight away without porpoising up and down. It does other good stuff like eliminates vibration and shock too.

I don't believe that the lower limb should necessarily 'be stiffer'. And by 'be stiffer', I assume you mean how it looks as it's viewed from the side at brace? That doesn't mean squat to me. I concern myself instead with how the limbs act relative to the fulcrums as they're being drawn.

If I want the bottom limb to ACT a tiny bit stiffer, which I do sometimes, I will make it so as viewed on the tree at full draw, relative to my fulcrums. Dynamically balanced, but favoring the bottom limb just a hair. Even done that way, many bows will show an even tiller... or even negative depending on the shape of the limbs to start.

Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline DC

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2018, 04:44:18 pm »
Do you use a standard tillering tree(if there is such a thing)? A saddle for the bow with a pulley on the floor under it?(both on the plumb line) Do you put the bow on the saddle as it will be shot or do you centre it?

Offline DC

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Re: Nock point
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2018, 05:12:45 pm »
OK, I drew a plumb line. It's the black line you can see on the yellow tape. I put the bow on the saddle as I would shoot it. If I put the draw rope so it's pulling down the plumb line it's about 2" left of the nock point. Doesn't look right to me ??? ???. Should the plumb line be over to the right in line with the arrow pass. You can just make out the pass line to the right of the saddle.