Author Topic: More discussion about backings.......  (Read 5814 times)

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Offline Springbuck

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More discussion about backings.......
« on: April 10, 2018, 11:28:44 pm »
 DC's post got me on to this train of thought.   I have to say, I still have a lot of questions about backings, mostly because guys I know make fine bows are doing things I don't get, or even wouldn't agree are correct.  Here is what I THINK I know. 

  The main purpose of the back of a bow, unless sinew or cable backed, is to hold the bow together.  "A bow is a bow until it's back breaks."   Everything else is secondary.

  Uninterrupted fibers from a single ring, either under the bark, or "chased" are best.  A sawn wood backing seeks to replicate this strength, by the nature of the wood specie chosen and our selection and milling of the grain.  We back staves that otherwise could not stand on their own, and to improve their profile.

Do we all agree so far?

  Now, Baker originally said that a backing too thick for the belly wood could overpower the belly, and listed a bunch of ratios for hickory + other woods.   He also extolled the rectangular cross section.     I still see this idea touted a lot, and I don't buy it at face value.     Baker later issued a correction, saying backings should be NARROWED by trapping rather than thinned, to match their bellies.  He offered a bamboo-backed red oak as an example, the bamboo surface being barely over half as wide as the belly.    I know I have had a good handful of very successful bows that ended up half backing and half belly.  I have likewise made good tri-lams with "tough wood/light wood/strong wood" combos, the belly slat being less than half the total thickness.

  We know most woods are tough to break, but stretch very little before breaking.   I.E. A hickory backing may perhaps be stronger than maple, but both will break if stretched their length + 2%, give or take.  Some woods are weak in tension, thus we see very few poplar-backed osage bows, right?    Commonly chosen backing woods are proven to be tension strong.  Hickory may be stronger than maple, but maple is stronger than average.....

  So, all that said, I truly believe that backed bows FAIL for exactly the same reasons self bows fail:  I guess a backing could overpower the belly, but far more often I have either had a backing fail from a FLAW (as do selfbow backs), or I had a belly fail because I expected too much of it.......    I.E.  I'm back to TBB basics, DESIGN IS KING!

  It's a sloppy sample, because backed bows are often profiled by Perry reflex or whatever, but what I mean is the back still has to not blow, and the belly still has to take the compression, or it'll take set.  WIDTH, length, profile, and thickness are still key, more so than the specie of the backing.

If I take a 2" wide elm stave, plane down the back, and back it with hickory, maple, or white oak, I have essentially done nothing as far as I can tell.   Perhaps I have added a little bit of weight.   Tillered in, ALL of those woods will "hold" an elm belly, and all will stretch a similarly tiny amount.  All will ask the same amount of compression of the belly, and all those bows could be tillered to similar draw weights at the same width and essentially the same thickness.  Plane down a 1-1/2" wide osage stave, and the story is the same, unless you tiller toward a very high draw weight. 

So, I'm thinking the question is "will the backing hold the stiffness of the belly" whether that comes from thickness or a stiffer belly wood.   I haven't done it, but I know an elm backing would hold a black locust belly, ASSUMING the width, thickness, and (by extension) the draw weight is appropriate, as well as a pristine BL back would have.   I expect maple is slightly less tension strong than elm or hickory, but not so much it won't hold the locust.  MAYBE a hickory back could be trapped more (or an elm back more crowned) than maple, but its probably a tiny difference.   Maybe a 1-1/2" wide locust belly should have a lower targeted final draw weight, than a 1-7/8" BL belly slat, but that would be true of a self bow, too.

 If I try to make a 100 lb maple-backed locust only 1-3/8" wide, well, I better tiller better than I ever have in my life.   If I back a fir 2 x 2 with maple and try to tiller THAT to 100 lbs, even worse.  BUT that has little to do with the backing.    It's more about width, belly wood, and design.

Anyway, I could be wrong here and there, but I don't buy that backings overpower bellies.  It's more likely that we back marginal staves or even marginal designs.  I don't think thickness of the backing kills bellies, I think stiffness of the belly does.  I do think trapped AND crowned backs are a fine strategy, assuming there is enough strength there  to hold the bow.   I also think different woods used as backings act about the same and interact with the belly about the same, except it may take more to break a hickory back than a maple back.  Finally, It seems backings are not as strong as pristine wood, but, unless flawed, or badly designed, are plenty strong.   Likewise, I have to assume a truly perfect maple backing would be better than a sketch hickory backing.

  I'm leaving bamboo out for now.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 11:56:18 pm by Springbuck »

Offline willie

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2018, 12:06:05 am »
Quote
I don't buy that backings overpower bellies........I don't think thickness of the backing kills bellies, I think stiffness of the belly does.

isn't strain (% stretch) proportional to stiffness?  ie.  a backing that is twice as stiff as a belly will stretch half as much as the belly will compress? this holds true when the backing and belly are substantial in thickness. (roughly a third? of the total limb thickness). A disproportionately strong back will make a less stiff belly act thicker/ take set sooner. If the limb cannot be as thick, it cannot be as stlff.

If the thickness of backing doesn't matter, why not a backing only a couple of thousandths thick? Perhaps I have not understood the question well?



« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 07:07:49 pm by willie »

Offline Badger

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2018, 07:35:45 am »
    I see your point Springbuck. Years ago I was really big on matching bellies to backings. Now I don't see much difference. I have backed ipe with maple on plenty of occasions. I have also used bamboo backings on woods like maple that ended up being 50% of the thickness. I feel the belly woods and thickness requires more attention than the backing. Very easy to go to thin on some belly woods. I know maple and several white woods will chrysal if the belly is too thin. Ipe and oasge can also cave in if too thin but they are more tolerant than the white woods.

   The biggest thing I have noticed and I am not really sure why is that if a bow is tillered out without any set it will perform as well or very close to as well as a backed bow that didn't take much set. I used to get a much more pronounced difference in performance between the two. For example. I have always felt that any self bow doing better than about 174 fps was a very fast self bow, but I would expect 184 from a backed bow before I would refer to it as very fast. I am finding more and more self bows hitting that 180 mark which really closes a lot of that gap between the two. I always like to add that I am talking hand shot bows which means more to the bowyer than an actual hard number shot from a shooting machine. Each archer will get different numbers depending on his shooting style.

   I still lean heavily toward bamboo backing primarily because I feel they are more reliable. I can't say for sure that are any faster than other backings though because i have repeated the same performance levels from all kinds of backings. I have never believed in trapping so I have no experience or comments to make on that subject.

Offline DC

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2018, 01:00:15 pm »
The thing that's eating at me is that we are taught to never, ever violate a back and yet quarter sawn backing, which almost certainly has grain violations, is used regularly. Does this mean that we could tiller back and belly as long as we keep the back flattish?

Offline Badger

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2018, 01:03:33 pm »
  DC, one of the things I like about 1/4 sawn backing is that you can tiller on the back if the belly starts getting too thin. Done it many times. Overall I have good luck with 1/4 sawn backing but not as good as I do with bamboo as far as being reliable and holding up over time.

Offline willie

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2018, 01:22:07 pm »
Quote
I am finding more and more self bows hitting that 180 mark which really closes a lot of that gap between the two.

Steve, have you had a chance to build a backed bow using your no set approach?

Offline Badger

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2018, 03:38:41 pm »
  I did a whole slew of them last year and they all took world records. I didn't chrono any of them. I just started using my chrono again after not using one much for a couple of years. These were english longbows. I will be doing an r/d bow this week or next, I will likely just skip the deflex and go right into reflex. I never liked the looks of a bow that deflexes right out of the handle.

Offline willie

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2018, 04:40:48 pm »
Quote
I did a whole slew of them last year and they all took world records.

just curious what some of the backing/belly species combos were?

Offline gfugal

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2018, 06:44:49 pm »
Preach! haha. I agree with you Springbuck. Willie makes a good point, but I think you already know that and are simply referring to backings of similar qualities like hickory and maple. like you, I disagree that "too thick of a backing will overpower the belly". It's more of a depends. If the belly is significantly less stiff, as Willie suggests, then of course it will (Backer showed this with his flax pine bow in TBB1). However, if you backed hickory, with hickory, unless the difference between the two trees was so great, I doubt that it would matter that much if the backing was 3/4 the thickness or 1/4 the thickness. Like you I've never understood backing things like osage with something like maple, unless the osage you wanted to use was marginal, in a way that it couldn't be a self-bow or else why not leave it as is? However, I do understand backing some compression strong woods that are otherwise marginal in tension, like juniper, ERC, IPE, ect. 

But maybe there is something more to it, like Badger suggests. Is it true that backed bows, no matter the pairing, outperform self-bows? according to his experience, it would seem that way but why? Maybe that's just crazy sample selection in his case, or maybe some subconscious difference in tillering. More likely there is something more to it that we don't fully understand yet. I've heard that backings are good because it more evenly distributes the weaknesses in the wood. For example, if you had an internal unseen imperfection in a limb, if you back it with some other piece of wood (even of the same species) then that imperfection only accounts for a partial amount of the wood thickness in that section, whereas before it would be all of that section that has that weakness in a self-bow.
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline DC

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2018, 07:48:51 pm »
I will be doing an r/d bow this week or next, I will likely just skip the deflex and go right into reflex. I never liked the looks of a bow that deflexes right out of the handle.

This is confusing me. Wouldn't an R/D with no D just be an R or are you going to deflex the handle like Marc?

Offline PatM

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2018, 07:52:49 pm »
Backed bow always seem to be glued up with a more favorable profile.  That's likely where the help is coming from.

Offline Badger

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2018, 08:04:47 pm »
I will be doing an r/d bow this week or next, I will likely just skip the deflex and go right into reflex. I never liked the looks of a bow that deflexes right out of the handle.

This is confusing me. Wouldn't an R/D with no D just be an R or are you going to deflex the handle like Marc?

   On a multi lam bow I deflex the handle area but on a stiff straight handle and fade area I don't like the sudden deflex. In the past I have always pulled it down mid limb about 1" and then start my reflex but I think I will just skip the deflex on the next one. I like the deflex when I use the handle to deflex.

Offline DC

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2018, 08:08:57 pm »
Gotcha, I agree. :D

Offline Springbuck

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2018, 09:00:00 pm »
willie; "If the thickness of backing doesn't matter, why not a backing only a couple of thousandths thick?"

 I wonder.  Baker talked about backing some bows with hickory veneer.  Thickest veneer I have seen is 1/40".  MY real thinking here is that, while following longitudinal grain exactly is so vital to the process, it's essentially impossible to do.  A backing that thin is just too prone to flaws.  But, I've seen PearlDrums suggest someone slap on two 1/16" hickory backings.  Does that equal one 1/8" backing?

  I think the same about bellies, too.  I once glued on a belly lam of ipe, less than 1/8" thick, to a black locust bow that I had screwed up.   I ground the belly flat on the belt sander, clamped some of the set out of it on a form, and applied the ipe to the belly.  That ipe basically crumbled at half draw.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 09:05:16 pm by Springbuck »

Offline Badger

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Re: More discussion about backings.......
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2018, 09:04:32 pm »
  I would think that the thinner you go with backings or belly strips the more critical the lamination process becomes and may require epoxy. At 1/16 backing I think you would be ok with a good backing strip. I have reduced them down in my outer limbs on several occasions during the tillering process.