Author Topic: More on speed  (Read 16453 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Badger

  • Member
  • Posts: 8,124
Re: More on speed
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2017, 09:07:19 pm »
  Willie, the heavier arrow will travel further at the same speed. I think they have a better ration of mass to drag. Josef is about the most successful flight shooter at the moment and he is using mostly 28" or longer arrows. I don't know the weight but I imagine around 300 to 400 grains depending on the spine he needs.

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,267
Re: More on speed
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2017, 09:12:41 pm »
it would be interesting to plot some weight vs speed and especially weight vs distance curves on a graph and see the shape of the curves

Offline joachimM

  • Member
  • Posts: 675
  • Good - better - broken
Re: More on speed
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2017, 01:19:09 am »
  Willie, the heavier arrow will travel further at the same speed. I think they have a better ration of mass to drag. Josef is about the most successful flight shooter at the moment and he is using mostly 28" or longer arrows. I don't know the weight but I imagine around 300 to 400 grains depending on the spine he needs.

The reason for this better ratio of mass to drag is that mass increases cubically with arrow diameter, whereas drag (surface area!) only increases quadratically (power 2).
For example take two douglas arrow shafts (sg 0.5 g/cm3), 0.8 cm and 1.2 cm thick, both 26" long, which translates roughly into 220 grains and 500 grains of mass. The surface and hence drag of the heavy arrow is only 1.5 times that of the lighter one, but its mass has increased by a factor 2.25.

So although the heavy arrow has 1.5 times more drag, it has 2.25 times more kinetic energy (E=MV2) at the same initial arrow velocity. Relative to the light arrow, It has more kinetic energy to compensate for drag (its drag coefficient will hence be lower),  hence it will fly further.

We know there is a trade-off between arrow speed and arrow mass. However, because of the virtual mass of a bow, arrow speed doesn't decrease linearly with arrow mass. Taken the non-linear relation between drag and arrow mass, there is a sweet spot (arrow mass) at which a bow can shoot farthest. At that sweet spot, both heavier and lighter arrows will reduce distance.

Part of the flight shooting game (next to arrow tuning, arrow shape, drag reduction, release, ...) is to find that sweet spot of perfect arrow mass for that particular bow.

This means it is possible that an heavier arrow shot at 190 fps may fly further than a lighter arrow shot at 200 fps. I think Steve can testify to this.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 04:12:58 am by joachimM »

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,267
Re: More on speed
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2017, 01:32:45 am »
Quote
Taken the non-linear relation between drag and arrow mass, there is a sweet spot (arrow mass) at which a bow can shoot farthest.
and consequently, an ideal SG of the arrow materiel, so that there is enough diameter to make spine? 

Is there a way to plot this non-linear curve?

Offline joachimM

  • Member
  • Posts: 675
  • Good - better - broken
Re: More on speed
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2017, 02:19:34 am »
in theory it's possible to plot these things, for theoretical values. But there are just so many different variables for which we don't have reliable parameter value estimates that it doesn't make too much sense to me, right now. But if we have better inputs, we may at least narrow our search area for ideal arrow-bow combinations.

At the very least, we would need to know the actual drag coefficients of the (flight) arrows being used. Which can be estimated, I think, by shooting through a chrony at varying distances.

For a technical and theoretical discussion on virtual mass, distance of arrow flight etc, see https://sites.google.com/site/technicalarchery/technical-discussions-1

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,396
Re: More on speed
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2017, 02:05:26 pm »
DC did the caldwell arrive ? (-P


Well it arrived. Ten days to get across the warehouse and 2 days to get 1000 miles and in the meantime it has been officially designated a Christmas present so I can't open it yet. And because of family work comitments and stuff we're not celebrating Christmas until Dec 30 so nothing until then. Humbug ;D ;D ;D

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,396
Re: More on speed
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2017, 11:46:59 am »
Well, she let me open it today but in the instructions it says it won't work reliably on snow. Maybe in 3-4 days.

Offline Stick Bender

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,003
Re: More on speed
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2017, 11:49:18 am »
 Sounds good  (-P
If you fear failure you will never Try !

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,396
Re: More on speed
« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2017, 02:29:25 pm »
I couldn't wait. I tried it in the snow. It worked great. Way less errors than the Chrony but then I've never used the Chrony in the snow. I only took ten shots or so cause it's cold out there. I only got two errors. Worst shot was 169 and I flubbed that. Most were high 170's, best was 182. So this means that my Chrony works so now I have two chronos. But the best news is that my bows are as fast as I was being told by the old chrono. That makes me feel very good.

Offline Stick Bender

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,003
Re: More on speed
« Reply #69 on: December 25, 2017, 02:37:16 pm »
Congrats ! That was a long haul to confirm your results but awsome speed, I really like the Caldwell it works in most conditions !
If you fear failure you will never Try !

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,396
Re: More on speed
« Reply #70 on: December 25, 2017, 03:12:07 pm »
I just noticed that I was using a light arrow. The bow is 44#@27" and I was using a 372grn arrow. So that's 8.5 gpp.  I'll try a 10gpp later.

Offline Badger

  • Member
  • Posts: 8,124
Re: More on speed
« Reply #71 on: December 25, 2017, 03:25:37 pm »
   That should put you at about 170 fps with 10 grains which is still very good performance.

Offline BowEd

  • Member
  • Posts: 9,390
  • BowEd
Re: More on speed
« Reply #72 on: December 25, 2017, 03:28:30 pm »
Good deal!!!
I am lucky enough here to be able to compare my readings on my chronograph with a buddys' chrono of mine and another chrono at a clubs' 3D range I go to occasionally.
They are spendy little tools for sure.I could of just not bought one myself for those reasons.
BowEd
You got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Ed

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,396
Re: More on speed
« Reply #73 on: December 25, 2017, 03:50:01 pm »
Just tested with 10gpp and it's in the high 160's. Hit 170 a couple of times. It was not as reliable with the heavier arrows. I'll paint the tips black and see if that helps.

Offline Stick Bender

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,003
Re: More on speed
« Reply #74 on: December 25, 2017, 04:01:46 pm »
For a 27 in. Draw and that weight it's  great !! speed still , how many strand string  I assuming FF ?
If you fear failure you will never Try !