Author Topic: Torges patch question  (Read 7392 times)

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Offline chamookman

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2017, 02:16:34 am »
My favorite Osage shooter many years ago developed a hinge mid limb In the upper. I band sawed a small piece of Osage to  match the dip in the limb where the hinge developed. Mixed up a batch of Resorsinal and clamped it up. Re-tillered that Bow shot hundreds more Arrows and was going strong when it was retired. Go for it, think it thru - but I wouldn't use the CA. Resorsinal leaves a dark glue line, but is still My favorite  :OK. Bob
"May the Gods give Us the strength to draw the string to the cheek, the arrow to the barb and loose the flying shaft, so long as life may last." Saxon Pope - 1923.

Offline Del the cat

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    • Derek Hutchison Native Wood Self Bows
Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2017, 02:32:15 am »
From a stress standpoint, you want 25 times longer than deep.

  For a compression patch, you would want more depth and less length, If you had a router that would cut a nice flat spot with square edges you could barely squeeze a patch into it would be better than one that tapered off slowly.
Indeed, that would be fine and wouldn't even need glue!
IMO the deep semicircular style patch combines the worst of both worlds! It has angles that will make it try and "orange pip" out and a small glue area.
Del
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Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2017, 08:27:20 am »
Circular has angles? Not any patch I ever did, which were radiused patches in fully radiused bellies.

Small glue area? It's ALL glue area, and the glue line stresses are better distributed than square or rectangle patches with ends and corners within them..

I've used the patching method Dean described only a few times, but with great success... in fact, without a failure. It works good in the right application.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2017, 08:33:23 am »
I tried a tight fitting square patch, it didn't hold up for any time at all.

Offline Badger

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2017, 09:54:36 am »
I tried a tight fitting square patch, it didn't hold up for any time at all.

  I never actually tried one, the Torges type is the only type I have actually tried and it did work. I just don't like patches in a bow, I never feel the same way about them once they have been patched.

Offline Pat B

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2017, 10:14:48 am »
I'd grind the belly flat on both limbs, add a new compression strong lam(osage, ipe) to each and retiller. I've done this on a few bows that fretted with good success.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2017, 11:27:41 am »
Circular has angles? Not any patch I ever did, which were radiused patches in fully radiused bellies.

Small glue area? It's ALL glue area, and the glue line stresses are better distributed than square or rectangle patches with ends and corners within them..

I've used the patching method Dean described only a few times, but with great success... in fact, without a failure. It works good in the right application.
Hmmm,
1. Have you never squeezed an orange pip or cherry pit and had it shoot out across the room? (they are roughly circular in cross section).
2. Of course a circle presents angles to the compressive force. I'd drawn a diagram to explain.
3. A shallow curved patch say 3/16" deep, 1" wide, and 5 " long has more glue area than a patch 1/2" deep 1"wide and 2" long.
Hope this clarifies it
Del
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Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2017, 12:33:38 pm »
I like the idea of grinding thinner and putting  a lam,,, not really a patch,, but re designed,, -C-

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2017, 01:30:28 pm »
Del, your drawing seems to have been done with a bias of preponderance to fail. Is this due to your experience, or just theory? If you'd have drawn one you were determined would succeed, as they often do, I suspect it would/should look different.

If we were to assume, as you did, that an arc/portion of a cylinder presented 'angles' by interceding with compressive forces, we would have to assume there were an infinite number of them, each at different angles, because it's a force vector interceding a portion of a cylinder(of identical material btw), and often an oblique arc/cylinder, which also helps dissipate the force in other vectors as well.

But I'm not even sure I buy all that 'angle stuff'. If the glue joint is properly done, it's at least as strong as the wood itself... and if the wood for the patch is carefully chosen from the same species and/or actual tree and ring and grain bias, then just-as-gradually-tillered and taught to resist the forces of compression as the balance of the limb was, the forces transfer into and through the patch, along the same lines as they did anywhere else in the limb. No problem. This hypothesis aligns itself more with what I've experienced in actual results. It's not a piece of polished titanium we're putting in there.

Hey, I like physics as much as the next guy, I'm just telling you guys it has worked really well for me... and is relatively quick and easy, compared to grinding the belly off one or both limbs and adding a lam, or replacing an entire limb, and reshaping and retillering the bow.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2017, 01:39:34 pm »
In fact, on the bows I've done patches on, it would have been easier to start another one than to cut off the handle, accurately grind the radiused belly away off of a bow glued into a d/r or recurve profile.... ever try that? good luck on that one... then add a lam of wood, reshape, tiller, etc. Yeah, much easier said than done.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2017, 01:49:16 pm »
Squirrels,, I get your point,, and I am sure it would be easier,, I have not tried it,, so your positive experience is noted,,
knowing how stressed sleek makes his bows worried me about the patch,, so I am leaning toward the more difficult solution,, thats just me and I understand if someone wanted to patch,,  :) not saying it could not work or might not be the best solution,,,, (-P

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2017, 01:57:14 pm »
Brad, I'm not saying it's the best way to go on his bow either, we haven't even seen it. Just saying that it can work well when the application DOES suit it. I've used it mostly on smaller areas, like where a fret or crack happens in an isolated area like near a knot.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline PatM

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2017, 02:14:20 pm »
It's a moot point since it's really only a viable option in a radiused "flat" bow belly or full D in a longbow.
 

 A wide rectangular limb just doesn't have the cross section profile that lends itself to the scooped out patch.

 That's where the whole limb patch is a better option.

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2017, 02:33:30 pm »
I may as well disagree with you too, Pat. Lol. I don't see why the same thing couldn't be done in a flatter flatbow.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline PatM

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Re: Torges patch question
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2017, 02:49:06 pm »
It will probably become clear when you try it. ;)