A good example of no set tillering

[BowEd]

Yes I gather that concept and goal and believe it is the smart and best way to be making bows that are durable.So I guess then it should'nt show much signs of use over time then like a couple thousand arrows and 500 hours of extended bracing times.

[Badger]

Yes I gather that concept and goal and believe it is the smart and best way to be making bows that are durable.So I guess then it should'nt show much signs of use over time then like a couple thousand arrows and 500 hours of extended bracing times.

     One of the first I did like that before I had actually named the system I used for about 8 years. 3-d competition as well as flight once a year. I doubt it had anywhere near 2000 hours brace time maybe 500 but easily had 2,000 or more arrows through it. Never lost 1 pound of weight. As it seasoned I had to nock off weight every year to make the 50# limit. It continued to break the it's own record as it aged until I gave it away last year as fresh as the day it was built and still improving on performance. Gaining and loosing moisture while braced is what I believe causes some accumulative damage. I always unbrace when I am done shooting.

[willie]

Does Yew have tension wood?

there is a good discussion of this Q. here.            http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,55682.0.html

I have always been curious about the qualities of the wood on the tension side, and how it relates to bowmaking.
The difficulties I have run into is a lack of hard science, and a practical way to test for differences. Compression qualities are much better understood, as wood usually fails there first.
I suspect that the differences in tension quality of a stave might make the difference we often see between a good bow and an exceptional bow. The exceptional bow, of course, also needs good compression quality, proper design and careful tillering. It does seems logical, (to me anyhow), that making a bow with minimal set or cell compaction, may be the best way to let good tension quality contribute to the overall performance.

[Badger]

   I agree Willie, I nver have figured out a way to isolate tension from compression as far as what they are doing in any particular bow. I believe you are right. Sometimes you run into a good pice where the tension does seem to show itslef.

[BowEd]

Yes I gather that concept and goal and believe it is the smart and best way to be making bows that are durable.So I guess then it should'nt show much signs of use over time then like a couple thousand arrows and 500 hours of extended bracing times.

     One of the first I did like that before I had actually named the system I used for about 8 years. 3-d competition as well as flight once a year. I doubt it had anywhere near 2000 hours brace time maybe 500 but easily had 2,000 or more arrows through it. Never lost 1 pound of weight. As it seasoned I had to nock off weight every year to make the 50# limit. It continued to break the it's own record as it aged until I gave it away last year as fresh as the day it was built and still improving on performance. Gaining and loosing moisture while braced is what I believe causes some accumulative damage. I always unbrace when I am done shooting.

Well then that's like a lot of the bows that hang around here.I shoot my bows extensively besides the 3D shoots and hunting with them.Unbracing after use also.Although not tested for breaking records are shot through a chronograph occasionally if I see it fit for curiosities sake.They stay good shooters here too and as winters go by poundage does gain a bit too.To keep way from any set retillering is needed.As said by yourself before there are many of us besides me who are probably tillering  in a low stress manner and method without bringing attention to it.It's good as I said before that you are.It can only bring more nice bows out to the public.

[Stick Bender]

Ed makes a good point about poundage increases with climate change I also have had greener osage increase over time somthing to think about if your going for no set tiller , but the part of this I have a hard time wraping my brain around is the increased mass unless the increased reflex over comes the increased mass of course I can therories all day but won't know tell I build a bow trying it !

[Badger]

Ed makes a good point about poundage increases with climate change I also have had greener osage increase over time somthing to think about if your going for no set tiller , but the part of this I have a hard time wraping my brain around is the increased mass unless the increased reflex over comes the increased mass of course I can therories all day but won't know tell I build a bow trying it !

   The increased mass is just based on the concept that width controls the draw weight of a bow and thickness just contols how far it can safely bend. In theory bows of the same design aside from width would have the same thickness but the heavier bow would be wider. So any added stress from reflex, draw length or shorter working areas has to be accounted for by adding width or mass.

[Badger]

   I just finished up another one that didn't come out as good as the yew bow. My own fault. A 70" osage bow stiff handle. I heated in 2 1/2" reflex out of the form. It held 2" of that up to the first brace and 24" draw. I lost another 1" in the last 4" of draw. I didn't respond quick enough to the first signs of set by going deeper into the fades and getting my outer limbs working more. More patience and I could have easily had a top shooter. I still have a good shooter but didn't get the full potential. I have found that very well made self bows with conservative designs can usually shoot in the low 170's. If you get the no set tiller just right the same profile can suddenly jump up to the 180 mark.

[joachimM]

I have found that very well made self bows with conservative designs can usually shoot in the low 170's. If you get the no set tiller just right the same profile can suddenly jump up to the 180 mark.

allow me to add to this "shooting 10 grains per pound of draw weight".

[DC]

Steve, when you are tillering a heat treated bow how do you deal with the treating pulling out compared to the bow taking set? Put another way, if you have established a bench mark and then pulled to full draw weight and then come back to your bench mark how do you know if a change in the bench mark is due to set or just a bit of induced reflex pulling out?

[Badger]

  That's a really good question, I have addressed it before but don't have a good answer, only a theory. I know for a fact that some induced reflex will just pull out naturally. Its not really set. The best way I have found to identify it is creep back in a rested bow. If it doesn't creep back it really hasn't taken set. What makes it hard and takes a lot away from this technique is that the early induced reflex does carry some weight that will drop. I like to allow 1/2" but have seen plenty of instances where I know I could have allowed more. This is partly what screwed me up yesterday, I treated the first part of the set as just not holding all the reflex when in fact it was actually taking some set. The best I can come up with right now is that the no set method is not 100%, just another tool to help us out if we are looking to hone in on a design. It does give us a better chance of getting that super bow here and there. I build all different styles and lengths and weights of bows so I rely heavily on the no set method but if you have already honed in on good dimensions for a given design it won't help much. I started off yesterday building a 70# bow, 1 3/4" wide, 70" long. I figured that was overkill to get started on. Early losses made me decide to drop down to 50#, it was holding very well so I started refining down the edges as I increased the draw, lowering the mass as I went. I ended up 1 1/2 wide pyramid design. I am overall very happy with the bow but I know I blew it for much better performance by not responding quick enough to what it was telling me. The bow comes back to 2" reflex after resting which tells me it is true set it took, not all that bad but I am still kicking myself in the but, the stave was perfect.

[Badger]

   Not really as bad as I thought, I went out and put about a dozen arrows through it and it was sitting 1 3/8 reflex when I first unbrace then goes back to 2", going to flight shoot it on saturday morning.

[Stick Bender]

With my limited skills I find the last 4 in. of draw to be the reflex killer if not done right , Steve at what point do you induce your reflex when using your method ?  Congrats on your bow & it still holding over 50% reflex.

[Badger]

  Stick, I don't have a set rule but when I have the bow bending pretty well on the long string or roughly about 22" of draw. I have been going to the brace at 24" draw but I might move that down to 22"

[Gaur]

Good discussion,   Thanks for sharing your wisdom and ideas Steve