Atlatl dart spine and length

[High-Desert]

I'm new to this atlatl dart making thing. I've made atlatl's, but never used them because I never made darts for them. I cut some red osier dogwood a few months back and found some that looked like they could make some darts. Right now they are about 6" long, but may be too limber. I'm curious how important the darts length is versus it's spine. Will it hurt to cut it down until it's the correct spine but only be 4' long? Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks guys.

Eric

[willie]

Eric,

I would not cut the length down, six foot is about right.

what is the small end diameter?, and where is the balance point and the overall length?

spine is mostly about how hard you throw.

[High-Desert]

The small end is about 3/8", and the balance is about 2/3 forward. I gave them a toss, they fly straight with no fletchig, but it is a very gentle toss, I would like to throw much harder.

[willie]

they fly straight with no fletchig 

what happens when you throw it harder?   what kind of range are you hoping to throw? 2/3 is prettty good balance if you are getting good flight without feathers.
 
nothing wrong with "a very gentle toss"  if you can throw it thirty yards at a target on the ground without lobing it too high.

[bjrogg]

High desert all very good questions and I've been wondering the same. I saw someone on you tube say 5-6 lbs of spine but I have no idea how to measure it. I would guess the faster you would throw dart the stiffer it would need to be. If you find out let me know. I'm pretty sure if you watched the right people on YouTube you could learn a lot, but I just didn't have the time. I'll try to figure out who it was I was watching
Bjrogg

[bjrogg]

High desert 🌵 if you look on Clewis post my new Atlatl he names a few you tubers. I think basketmaker was the one I was watching.
Bjrogg

[willie]

Brian

there is a way to measure spine where you use a scale to measure how much compression applied to the end of the dart makes it bow out sideways. if you have decent way to measure  in that range, you will see that once a dart starts bowing when compression is applied, any further force does not move the scale much more, it just makes the dart bend more.

5-6 lbs seems about right to me for 10-15 yard target (easy) throws with lighter (approx 3-5 oz) darts. I have found that heavier stiffer darts in the 8-9 lb range work better for stronger throws.

there is some variability with tapered vs untapered darts, the length of the thrower used and of course, personal throwing style and just as with an arrow, a heavier point changes the dynamic spine also.

[bjrogg]

Thanks Willie, if I remember right it was basketmaker I was watching and he said the name of style of spine test. It's very possible the same method you are suggesting.
Bjrogg

[High-Desert]

When I throw too hard the dart shoots really low. From what I've read that means too limber. I'll watch some of those videos and see, as well as experiment with shorter darts and see how well they work. Thanks for everyone's help. I thought this stuff was supposed to be so easy because cave men did it, but apparently they knew a lot more than I.

[Red Arrow]

I've seen darts from 5'-6' or so in length but from what I've read and been told, the length depends on their purpose. Longer darts will fly further, shorter darts may be more acurate at closer ranges. You can also make shorter primary shafts with seperate foreshafts which can be connected to them by use of a sleeve type nock, especially with bamboo darts. Each foreshaft can be specialized for a specific purpose: hunting point, target point, blunt point, etc.). This allows you to carry a few primary shafts and multiple foreshafts when on the trail or hunting. Plus, if the points or foreshaft get broke you only need to replace it; you don't have to make new primary shafts with correct spine.

As for red osier or other wood darts, I'd say cut them to length based on balance point and good spine.

[Hawkdancer]

Ron,
What length would you make the fore shafts?  I have seen some drawings somewhere, but haven't tried to make any yet.  Also would you make them from a different wood than the main shaft, or just go with what is on hand?  Btw, I am still trying to figure out a good design for a dart quiver(?), the mailing tube with a piece of rope duct taped on is not very authentic!  👹😂.  Thanks,
Hawkdancer

[Red Arrow]

I'm using bamboo for my primary and forshafts since I have so much of it right now. Since bamboo is already hollow the foreshaft can be cut at a point big enough to fit snuggly over the primary. I'm making my forshafts 6"-12", plus points.

I haven't tried any other woods yet but I don't think it would matter if the foreshaft and primary were the same wood or not. From what I've been told you want the weight forward in  dart so if using different woods I'd use the heavier wood for foreshafts. Just remember, you have to be able to hollow the end of it or make a sleeve to connect them together.

As for a quiver, I don't know what type was historically used for atlatls and darts but I'd use a bark quiver or bamboo/rivercane quiver. Bark can be rolled and tied into . Some bamboo species are big enough as is, or it can be stripped down and woven into quivers.

I'm still researching. 😀

[Jodocus]

The unfletched dart will fly with low rear end ift too hard, high rear end if too soft. This applies within a certain range around good spine. Extreme aberration will produce maybe different pictures. To somenone new with atlatl and dart, the darts seem surprisingly long and wobbly.

Mine are typically just under 7 feet long and about 3/8" in the middle.

You can fiddle around by barreling the dart more or less (more barreling = higher spine), shortening the dart, or adding a heavier tip.

[Red Arrow]

More experience atlatl throwers than I who use 72" primaries told me "a foreshaft will change the lb of spine while testing but not alter flight, so if you use a foreshaft test the spine without it first."

[High-Desert]

I haven't got a chance to go out an test tyendarts again, but yes, the first time i launched them, they seem overly wobbly, and like was said, those new to using atlatl's, will think the dart is overly wobbly, and I think less than 10 throws qualifies me as a less than amateur.
So if I have to shorten the dart to get a bit more spine, will adding a foreshaft give the advantage of distance and accuracy of a longer dart?

Eric