Sinew Processes ?

[BowEd]

No mention of wrapping and heating in Adams' book that I've seen.
Pat...Have you ever mentioned it to him or made horn bows yourself using the wrapping and heating sinew application method for a cleaner look?
Stick Bender...As far as wrapping sinew around handles and limbs for the purpose of holding the sinew down onto a bow.To me it's not needed on a lower stressed type self bow.I'm sure it's an assurance thing when done.Nothing wrong with that either.Personal preference.It's more of a cleaner look wanted thing by some.On powerful horn bows at the base of siyahs I'm sure it's an assurance thing and probably needed too.I don't put sinew on the static tips either on self bows.No reason for it so no wrapping needed.The only reason I even put a silk wrap on at the base of a tip over a snake skin covering is to keep the loop from frying the skin up over time.Otherwise purely decorative.

[mikekeswick]

It is pretty simple
Wooden bows will be fine with a lower proportion of glue to sinew. However there IS aa limit and I found it by making sinew juniper bows. I a couple blow once I went too low with the amount of glue.
A few wraps too many or with a little too much pressure and you will get a broken bow for your troubles. It is common sense really. This wrapping method may have merits if you are new to sinewing but once you have done a few and tried to refine your technique it is really quite easy to get a totally smooth surface.
Wrapping would never be used on a Turkish Hornbow because the sinew needs to be flat. Adam does mention in his book that these Turkish bows sinew was never wrapped.
Somebody said earlier that composites are stronger with less glue....this isn't true I have made lots of carbon fibers parts and have a fair bit of experience making various composite materials. Excessive glue will weaken a composite AS WILL too little glue. Too little glue is actually the worst possible thing you could have happen with a composite and the material will fail well before it should have done. With most modern composites the ratio of epoxy / fiber should be 50/50. Funny.....that is the same ratio of sinew to glue.....maybe them old fellas knew something!
Pat - how many Turkish hornbows have made? You seem to not mind scoffing at the old methods and the ones Adam recommends....show us what you can do if you think you have it all worked out

[Stick Bender]

I have learned a lot with this thread very interesting things going on here the funny thing is this knowledge has been around for thousands of years and is still being discussed with vigor, Brad the book in discussion is Ottaman Turkish Bows by Adam Karpowicz  even if you plan never to make a composite bow the price of admission for the purchase of the book is well worth it probably one of the best books writen on sinew processes & Technical exsplanation its a heavy read & reread to retain the knowledge but well worth it in my mind, but after breaking enough bows in this game I like to use every avalable technic to my advantage !

[PatM]

It is pretty simple
Wooden bows will be fine with a lower proportion of glue to sinew. However there IS aa limit and I found it by making sinew juniper bows. I a couple blow once I went too low with the amount of glue.
A few wraps too many or with a little too much pressure and you will get a broken bow for your troubles. It is common sense really. This wrapping method may have merits if you are new to sinewing but once you have done a few and tried to refine your technique it is really quite easy to get a totally smooth surface.
Wrapping would never be used on a Turkish Hornbow because the sinew needs to be flat. Adam does mention in his book that these Turkish bows sinew was never wrapped.
Somebody said earlier that composites are stronger with less glue....this isn't true I have made lots of carbon fibers parts and have a fair bit of experience making various composite materials. Excessive glue will weaken a composite AS WILL too little glue. Too little glue is actually the worst possible thing you could have happen with a composite and the material will fail well before it should have done. With most modern composites the ratio of epoxy / fiber should be 50/50. Funny.....that is the same ratio of sinew to glue.....maybe them old fellas knew something!
Pat - how many Turkish hornbows have made? You seem to not mind scoffing at the old methods and the ones Adam recommends....show us what you can do if you think you have it all worked out

 We're not talking about horn bows here Mikey. Nor did I scoff. Maybe you should try the method first.  Seems you're accusing me of the same thing you're doing.

 But  I'm certainly not going to switch because you want to be a follower with little imagination.

[Bob Barnes]

yes, it has been an interesting thread...     I guess if I want to sinew back my D/R, reflexed, or flat bows I will use Pat's method because I like the idea of the sinew being more homologous than those that I have made in the past.  It will sure make my snakeskin look better being glued to a smooth surface.  If I ever decide to build a heavily stressed Turkish hornbow, then I will definitely read the book mentioned.  ...at least neither method is suggesting application with TB3... 

[bradsmith2010]

so a medium amount of glue seems to be the best,,,,wrapping or not seems to be still debateable,,??

[PatM]

Keeping it simple and from a reliable source.
   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_volume_ratio

[willie]

brad, I think it is more about careful layups.

dont starve the layup by having too little glue with too dry materiel's, or by wringing out so much "excess" that you introduce air.

avoiding  too much glue is just a matter of getting your sinew on neatly without tangles/crossups/puckers  etc, and filling gaps with excess glue

If I am not mistaken, I do not think that the wrapping method calls for very much pressure

check out vetwrap, very easily adjustable for pressure

[PatM]

Whatever pressure it takes to get about 70/30.      That's probably closer to what most modern composites strive for. That's why they use vacuum bagging and autoclaves rather than just hand lay-ups.

[bradsmith2010]

thats it, thats all you guys got to say,,

[Stick Bender]

Nope Brad I googled Wikipedia & the said Jim Hamms method was probably one of the best sinew application processes so maybe I will give that a shot all kidding a side  Jim has probably made more sinew bows then most , I know you personaly knew him if you get a chance could you comment on your thoughts about his sinew bows & processes ?

[BowEd]

Sorry Brad I could'nt help it here.I know Jims' method has started many people and in my opinion a good safe way.Which counts for a lot.Applying the way Adam Karpowizes shows is probably getting the best out of the sinew you can.More articulate and calculating but still just as safe.Just shows the versatility of the product I think.Comparing apples to oranges here horn bows to self bows though.So in the past I've heard people say how it diminishes performance etc. for one reason or another.Not if put on properly and it put in a position and shape to do it's job better besides protecting the back.It's still not rocket science to do.Just takes practice is all.Even on lower stressed self bows.Higher crowned backs versus flat backs.Short bows and long bows and different types of wood.Crowning and tapering it and laying off putting so much on the stiff tips where it's not needed on longer bows.A person can't blame the product if it is'nt used properly in the right way and I think Pat M's method is a great innovation to use along with this also.So it's all good to me and I'm just sticking up for sinew's properties is all in the end.Just my opinion again too and everybodys got one.

[PatM]

Maybe the Turks could have cracked that 1000 yard mark if they just eliminated a little more glue dead weight.  Alas, the invention of used inner tubes came a few hundred years too late.   

[Stick Bender]

Thats a good point Ed some times we discuss all the refinements of doing things & it can sound more complex then it really is , but it really boils down to which method you feel most comfortable with and what works for you but I think it is a good thing seeing all the methods available, is one method better then the other thats really is up to the individual doing it. But my level of understanding went up a notch from all the opinions here !

[BowEd]

Pat M....What do you mean they.....lol.You seem to be a very knowledgeable bow maker even though I hav'nt seen any of your bows.Maybe you could get them all to turn over in their grave....lol.