Author Topic: High crown?  (Read 2482 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bjrogg

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,997
  • Cedar Pond
High crown?
« on: March 02, 2017, 07:25:07 am »
I hear guys worried about high crown and putting to much tension on back. I'm thinking this means because high crown area has more compression under it, there for it requires more tension to over come the compression. Looking at it this way I can see how decrowning could help but really don't understand how you could do it without violating back. Then I really got confused when Pearl was asked about it and his answer was basically crowning belly which seems to be completely opposite of how I'm understanding this problem. I'm sure Pearl understands it way better than me. There must be something I'm missing or overthinking.
Bjrogg
A hot cup of coffee and a beautiful sunrise

Offline Marc St Louis

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 7,877
  • Keep it flexible
    • Marc's Bows and Arrows
Re: High crown?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2017, 07:53:39 am »
It's not so much more compression but rather less wood to do tension work on the back.  With a high crown all the tension work is concentrated in a smaller area and even tension strong wood can have problems with this.  Elm does prefer a crowned back but unless you have fairly thick rings then the back will be a weak point.
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

Marc@Ironwoodbowyer.com

Offline PEARL DRUMS

  • Member
  • Posts: 14,079
  • }}}--CK-->
Re: High crown?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2017, 08:08:21 am »
The highest point on the back/belly carries the biggest load, that's probably the easiest way to explain it. If the back is a high crown and the belly is board flat, the belly will win that battle most often and the bow will break or pop one helluva splinter. When you round the belly to match the back you are equalizing the load as best you can. But all this depends on your species. Like Marc said, elm will often like a round back and maybe a more flat belly as its a very elastic wood. Hickory is another similar to elm. Trapping a bows back is like using a high crown stave.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline bjrogg

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,997
  • Cedar Pond
Re: High crown?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2017, 08:22:35 am »
Thanks Marc, Thanks Pearl, I understand how the high crown has the most tension. I've been confused on the flat back verses crowned back. I think my grey cells might be figuring this out now. By crowning belly your moveing neutral plain farther away from back making more wood surface on back for tension? Or maybe even more important moving neutral plain to where compression and tension are spread more evenly over crosssection. Thanks for the help sometimes I'm a little slow and do better seeing than reading.
Bjrogg
A hot cup of coffee and a beautiful sunrise

Offline George Tsoukalas

  • Member
  • Posts: 9,425
    • Traditional and Primitive Archers
Re: High crown?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2017, 08:49:00 am »
I have always left high crowned staves 2 or so inches longer to counteract crown.
Decrowning is tricky to do and not violate the lateral grain (tip to tip grain lines).
Jawge
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline PatM

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,737
Re: High crown?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2017, 08:58:00 am »
Thanks Marc, Thanks Pearl, I understand how the high crown has the most tension. I've been confused on the flat back verses crowned back. I think my grey cells might be figuring this out now. By crowning belly your moveing neutral plain farther away from back making more wood surface on back for tension? Or maybe even more important moving neutral plain to where compression and tension are spread more evenly over crosssection. Thanks for the help sometimes I'm a little slow and do better seeing than reading.
Bjrogg

 Hard to say if the neutral plane is being shifted. Probably easier to just think that you are removing more volume of material from the compression side by rounding it.

Offline Springbuck

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,545
Re: High crown?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2017, 12:33:47 pm »
I understand it this way.....

A crowned sapling bow with elm likes a flat belly, because elm is always stronger in tension as it is so tough.  A narrow and thick  elm bow takes set because the tough back squashes the belly, so leaving it wide and flat actually balances the tension and compression a bit.  It gives you more wood on the compression side to work with, to prevent set, etc...  Taking a 2.5" wide bow from a 4" dia sapling works fine.  You totally knew knew this.

PearlDrum's osage bow came from a VERY tiny stave, so crown is really high, i.e. tension forces concentrated on a tiny band running down the crown on the back. NOW, osage is only about AS STRONG as elm in tension, but much stronger AND more elastic in compression.  So, the belly could resist the back TOO MUCH if made too wide, right?     By also crowning the belly, or rounding the cross section, he ensures that the narrow, strained band of tension on the back is exactly opposite a narrow, strained band of compressed wood on the belly.  That way, instead of resisting the back enough to endanger it, the belly HAS to compress.

Now, if you did this with elm, the belly would compress too much, since the back is RELATIVELY so strong, and it would take nasty set.  But, osage is both stiff and elastic, so even though this might take slightly MORE set than some osage bows, it'll be pretty minimal, and certainly worth the trade-off of protecting the back.  And, since the skinny osage pole was pretty long, and he had all but the very middle working, you almost aren't gonna notice.

This is why osage is a 10/10 bow wood, and elm is a 7.5.   Not because an elm bow can't shoot awesome, but because with osage you can get away with much more, you have more options, etc...

This works best with elastic woods, vis the yew ELB. Compression strong woods with LESS elasticity, like black locust work great with a crowned stave, a flat belly, and just a slightly thinner and narrower limb than the elm.

Offline bjrogg

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,997
  • Cedar Pond
Re: High crown?
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2017, 12:46:45 pm »
Thanks Pat, Thanks Springbuck, I think I understand now. I don't know how all the woods work yet. I do believe I have the high crown and crowned belly figured out now. Springbuck that's how I was thinking it worked now. You did a very good job explaining it. Basically the wood in between the crowned back and belly cancel each other out and your left with narrow back and belly.
Bjrogg
A hot cup of coffee and a beautiful sunrise