Author Topic: American Hornbeam...CRACK  (Read 5620 times)

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Offline upstatenybowyer

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2017, 01:29:08 pm »
Hi there, sorry for the break. Here is my take on it:

1) I think you ended up with too short of an area that was actually bending with the added recurves
2) I believe the ridges did not contribute to it. To the contrary, I actually believe [no scientific observation] that the multiple ridges on summer harvested HHB if not violated might actually increase the surface area of the back. I believe it only becomes an issue if you have a heavily crowned stave. My HHB bow I made (Sudbury style) has extreme ridging and has so far not experienced any failures. It has however other than the ridges a flat back.
3) Backing will in my opinion transfer the problem to the bow's belly where you would increase the likelihood of chrysals if not careful. I had issues with that in the past, especially on shorter HHB bows (which this would be when counting the stiff recurves)

Cheers,

Phil

Interesting thoughts for sure. See the Short and Simple HHB thread  ;)
"Even as the archer loves the arrow that flies, so too he loves the bow that remains constant in his hands."

Nigerian Proverb

Offline Jim Davis

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2017, 01:39:35 pm »
Hi there, sorry for the break. Here is my take on it:
 
1) I think you ended up with too short of an area that was actually bending with the added recurves
2) I believe the ridges did not contribute to it. To the contrary, I actually believe [no scientific observation] that the multiple ridges on summer harvested HHB if not violated might actually increase the surface area of the back....

Phil

Don't want to hit too hard here, but "[no scientific observation]" is the factual part of that idea. The ridges take the strain first and the lower parts don't contribute until the ridges have stretched, or broken. This is  pretty straightforward geometry and mechanics. A lamination at the height of the ridge would take all the tension strain. About 90 % of the tension and compression forces are handled by material within 10% of the surface. That's where the ridges are.

Jim Davis
Jim Davis

Kentucky--formerly Maine

Offline Philipp A

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2017, 02:02:43 pm »
to asharrow: maybe I should expand a little on my thoughts. The ridges will add to stiffness of the bow (just fold a piece of paper harmonica style to confirm). I do recognize that the peak of the ridge takes the strain first. But the more ridges you have the more this strain is divided up between those ridges. Hence my observation that it is more the higher crown of the stave than the ridges that are the culprit on that bow braking. I think the ridges themselves contribute little to nothing to the bow having failed. I have observed this myself on my own HHB bow that has been harvested from summer cut wood and is heavily ridged but with a flat crown. It is by far my best shooting bow to date (Sudbury style) with 75# draw weight at 26" and I have to date after hundreds of arrows no evidence of any cracking (not even a tick).

Offline Jim Davis

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2017, 02:20:17 pm »
Ridges are just gang of high crowns. I'm not making this up. I did study physics and mechanics.

If there were more stretch to wood, the ridges could stretch and the lower areas would take up some of the strain as they began to be stretched. BUT, wood only stretches about 1% before it breaks. That's not enough to start the lower areas adding to the effort.

Your image of folded paper is correct in the idea of making a form more rigid, but that only means it will bend less before it fails.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 02:23:57 pm by asharrow »
Jim Davis

Kentucky--formerly Maine

Offline PatM

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2017, 02:23:53 pm »
to asharrow: maybe I should expand a little on my thoughts. The ridges will add to stiffness of the bow (just fold a piece of paper harmonica style to confirm). I do recognize that the peak of the ridge takes the strain first. But the more ridges you have the more this strain is divided up between those ridges. Hence my observation that it is more the higher crown of the stave than the ridges that are the culprit on that bow braking. I think the ridges themselves contribute little to nothing to the bow having failed. I have observed this myself on my own HHB bow that has been harvested from summer cut wood and is heavily ridged but with a flat crown. It is by far my best shooting bow to date (Sudbury style) with 75# draw weight at 26" and I have to date after hundreds of arrows no evidence of any cracking (not even a tick).

 Note that the bow in question is American Hornbeam, not HHB.  HHB tends to have multiple  more evenly distributed ridges. American Hornbeam has fewer and more defined ridges.

Offline Philipp A

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2017, 02:37:57 pm »
to PatM: thanks for the clarification, my mistake  :) I should read the posts more carefully!

Offline upstatenybowyer

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2017, 03:06:16 pm »
to asharrow: maybe I should expand a little on my thoughts. The ridges will add to stiffness of the bow (just fold a piece of paper harmonica style to confirm). I do recognize that the peak of the ridge takes the strain first. But the more ridges you have the more this strain is divided up between those ridges. Hence my observation that it is more the higher crown of the stave than the ridges that are the culprit on that bow braking. I think the ridges themselves contribute little to nothing to the bow having failed. I have observed this myself on my own HHB bow that has been harvested from summer cut wood and is heavily ridged but with a flat crown. It is by far my best shooting bow to date (Sudbury style) with 75# draw weight at 26" and I have to date after hundreds of arrows no evidence of any cracking (not even a tick).

 Note that the bow in question is American Hornbeam, not HHB.  HHB tends to have multiple  more evenly distributed ridges. American Hornbeam has fewer and more defined ridges.

Thanks Pat. I was really trying to get this point across!
"Even as the archer loves the arrow that flies, so too he loves the bow that remains constant in his hands."

Nigerian Proverb

Offline Philipp A

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2017, 03:38:13 pm »
to asharrow: thanks for your reply. I found your note of the percentage of elongation prior to failure interesting. I was wondering whether you have the percentage of elongation for different wood species. I have found these logarithmic charts on ductility, but it lists only a small number of wood species.

http://www-materials.eng.cam.ac.uk/mpsite/interactive_charts/strength-ductility/basic.html

Offline MulchMaker

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2017, 07:00:25 am »
Ouch!! At least it's bringing up some good discussion. I wonder sometimes if the stave just has to many problems to solve and the one we over look is the one that spells CRACK!!! Do you think American hornbeam should be avoided unless backed?

Offline Badly Bent

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2017, 08:19:10 am »
To bad that one didn't survive, especially since you were so close to full draw. Muscle wood makes an interesting looking bow with the loads of character on the back but it is a challenge to get to bend without breaking. I've attempted 3 in the past, one broke at floor tiller, one broke on the tiller tree at around 27" draw and one survived and made a bow. The one that made 27" then broke was riddled with tiny worm holes. I knew it was very likely doomed from the get go but was curious to see if it could be pulled off. The one that broke at floor tiller I had nicked the back on one of the ridges while removing the bark. The one that survived was given to a brother since the wood came off his property and it still shoots although I don't think he takes it down to shoot often. This one did have the flatter back with less ridges than the other two.I have to admit it scared the crap out of me when I first gave it to him and watched him crank it back to 29" as he shot arrows in the target.
I ain't broke but I'm badly bent.

Offline upstatenybowyer

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2017, 08:34:02 am »
BB, glad to hear that one of them survived. Gives me some hope, although it'll probably be a while before I try AH again. If I do, it'll probably be a less stressed design.
 
"Even as the archer loves the arrow that flies, so too he loves the bow that remains constant in his hands."

Nigerian Proverb

Offline Springbuck

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2017, 11:17:18 am »
The problem with ALL bows we make is that, the whole time, it's looking for a weakness.  And, it only HAS to find ONE.   ;D
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 11:27:21 am by Springbuck »

Offline BowEd

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2017, 11:49:30 am »
Sounds like having a little sinew around when making American Hornbeam bows could be useful.Orrr.... some skins.I horde all kinds of skins here.flat head catfish/grass carp/sturgeon/deer.All these are all a little thicker than your average snake skin for holding splinters down good.
BowEd
You got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Ed

Offline Springbuck

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2017, 12:26:49 pm »
Phillip, Asharrow would be a better source for specific numbers than I am, but I can tell you from experience (as well as the chart you posted, which was cool) that the differences in elongation potential between different species aren't huge.  The differences in tensile strength, which to us= backs that don't break, is huge.

If you notice, the chart is for wood AND wood products, and while only a few are named, many others MUST be included in the main bubble.  NO wood tested is outside bubble.  See how the bubble for the wood"s numbers basically straddles 1% ?  And see how on the far right edge the "stretchiest" wood product is paper (which is basically bonded felt made of wood-fiber, with fibers running every direction rather than parallel)? 

Next note that BALSA, which is a ridiculous amount WEAKER than oak, stretches just barely less.  Likewise, notice that oak stretched in it's STRONGEST dimension (along the fibers) stretches only about twice as far (+/-  2%) as when stretched in it's weakest dimension, across the grain (+/- 0.8-0.9%).  So, even strong wood, in it's strongest tensile application, isn't very stretchy. 

Though they weren't named, they must have tested other woods, but note how close oak is to the top of the bubble.  This means that even woods much more dense and "stronger" (in other practical senses), than oak aren't a lot stronger than oak in perfectly longitudinal tension (break resistance).  AND note that since paper, an engineered product, dominates the right side of that bubble, we can guess that those more dense strong woods don't ELONGATE much more than oak, either.  Oak stretches only a smidgin more than pine and a tad more than balsa.  I'm guessing ipe stretches only a tiny bit more than oak, then.

Offline Philipp A

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Re: American Hornbeam...CRACK
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2017, 01:08:44 pm »
Hi Springbuck: interesting observations for sure! From what I have read, tensile strength of wood is primarily related to the density of the wood and the MFA (microfibril angle) of the S2 layer in the wood cell. I have in some other discussions posted some articles on the subject. But would gladly do it again. I am by no means an expert but like to read up on things once I take an interest in something. This is of course with the risk of sometimes misinterpreting things as well...lol
At the end though curiosity drives knowledge :)