violating a back

[PatM]

 Seems like Jack doesn't know his name.

[Bryce]

So the thought that Eskimos used sinew cable backs is erroneous?

Well, some bows undoubtedly used sinew and were much smaller without the massive cable. They are also likely to have been made of antler. Only baleen could ever provide that massive cable.

 Why is that?  Aren't ropes just made by adding more of the same?

Yes but you can only get so much sinew from a caribou. Think about how little sinew you get from four leg tendons and a backstrap, and compare that to what you get from baleen. Now consider that sinew had to be used for other, more pertinent tasks like sewing clothing and kayaks. There simply was not enough of this precious material to go around, particlarly among those further inshore.

  An animal has tendons in the front of the legs too.

 However I think sinew is a bit more readily stockpiled than hunting or finding whales for baleen. Speaking of precious material...

 Maybe you should consider that the main part of the bow would be baleen?
 

Doesn't matter, those tendons are short and contribute nothing. A backstrap offers one light backing of sinew for a bow, now tell me how many caribou backstraps do you think you would need to produce +100 feet of cordage? Keep in mind these people were strapped for sinew with all that multilayered clothing they wore and all that kayak jointing.

They used whale sinew. So there was plenty on hand. Huge 12' peices would go a long way.

[Marc St Louis]

It is indeed.  The images he posts give no clear indication that those bows have a violated back.

If Jack wants to prove his point then he should post bows he has made himself, at full draw 

[Jack Napier]

I'm curious how much ainew they got from whales and seals. I would assume they would have quite a bit of back strap sinew.

Kyle

I'm unsure about whales but seals definitely could not account for it.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if the cable is made from sinew or baleen. The point is that it's a cable and not a sinew backing. A sinew backing is a covering glued over thd width of the bow's back which serves to relieve tension on the bow and and (allegedly) reinforce its surface by preventing splinters from lifing. A cable bracing, on the other hand, is just a cable that runs along the center of the bow which alleviates tension stress on the bow but does nothing to prevent splinters from rising.

This is especially relevent since driftwood is guaranteed to have violated grains; you literally cannot get to the good stuff without adzing or splitting off the worthless, punky outer layer. Dragging on this useless discussion about cable bows only distracts from the original topic of growth ring violation and I suspect that's shy some are choosing to push this as far as they can.

[Jack Napier]

It is indeed.  The images he posts give no clear indication that those bows have a violated back.

Yes they do. If you canot see this, you are an amateur. In adition to this, violation of growth rings by North American aboriginals is a well desribed phenomena in athropological literature

[BowEd]

Jack....Violated superior to one growth ring?How about when you go through a knot?What do you think's going to happen?

[Bryce]

I'm sorry Mr. Jack but calling Marc an amateur is not ok.
Now I have made bows with violated backs with wood like vinemaple and yew. Other than that I stick with one ring unless I want to back the bow. And yes I've made unbanked flat backed bows as well as to say they are better... well that's just putting holes in a bucket.
And before you knock the longbow. Which is imo way better to shoot. Before the NA horse culture they shot longbows.

[Gangsta Bow]

a yo Jack Napier i just wanna say i really appreciate you doing what you're doing, trying to lift the lid on the old wives tales, mad respect son. i've been skeptical about this growth ring violation stuff, cuz i'm a musician and we have myths like this in our profession, y'knaw mean?

when i had to do violin in highschool i remember everybody saying 'quartersawn lumber is best, quartersawn is the strongest'. for real? cause that totally defies intuition. years later i found out all these 'experts' were totally wrong. the exact opposite was the case.

http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/quartersawn.htm

man, when these hobos gon' learn?

much luv from the jamaica queens

[bubby]

This is hilarious!!!

[paulsemp]

I'm telling you this must be squirrel Slinger or squirrel Slayer or whatever his name was.... we haven't had this much Ridiculousness on here since his Christmas tree build!

[Jack Napier]

Jack....Violated superior to one growth ring?How about when you go through a knot?What do you think's going to happen?

Absolutely nothing. I don't understand why everybody has this superstition about cutting down knots -- and refuses to evolve from there. This is another holdover from the English longbow days when English bowyers had to make due with crappy quality, knotty wood. I understand why English techniques are going to predominate in an Anglosphere country, but as a dyed-in-the-wool Cornish American, can we move beyond Victorian ideas about bow making, and realize, for once, that our ancestors didn't get everything right? HOWEVER, I generally avoid knots because they are useless weight in a bow. It's not the year 1600 anymore, we don't depend on a deplinishing supply of yew for bow wood anymore, and so there's really no need to take knotty bow staves anymore. In today's world of carbon emissions and global warming we need to be choosing our trees very responsibly.

[PatM]

I'm curious how much ainew they got from whales and seals. I would assume they would have quite a bit of back strap sinew.

Kyle

I'm unsure about whales but seals definitely could not account for it.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if the cable is made from sinew or baleen. The point is that it's a cable and not a sinew backing. A sinew backing is a covering glued over thd width of the bow's back which serves to relieve tension on the bow and and (allegedly) reinforce its surface by preventing splinters from lifing. A cable bracing, on the other hand, is just a cable that runs along the center of the bow which alleviates tension stress on the bow but does nothing to prevent splinters from rising.

This is especially relevent since driftwood is guaranteed to have violated grains; you literally cannot get to the good stuff without adzing or splitting off the worthless, punky outer layer. Dragging on this useless discussion about cable bows only distracts from the original topic of growth ring violation and I suspect that's shy some are choosing to push this as far as they can.

 No. But you just said both types of backing work the same way. They alleviate tension stress on the underlying wood. Which is good if it is violated or tension weak.

[bubby]

You can't dispell a myth or become an expert by reading about it...build 500 bows or so and then we'll talk, and while your at it post pics of your work not some museum pics, put up or shut up

[BowEd]

Jack...I'm really close to Missouri.I believe in show me as a fact of truth.Phenomena???Anthropolgy literature??? as proof of yours?Show me a finished violated flat back knotty self bow at full draw that you've made that is deer killing potential.
So since I put myself into a student chair to listen here what are your opinions on violating the longitudal grain?I'm ready to learn from a hands on expert.

[Jack Napier]

I'm curious how much ainew they got from whales and seals. I would assume they would have quite a bit of back strap sinew.

Kyle

I'm unsure about whales but seals definitely could not account for it.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if the cable is made from sinew or baleen. The point is that it's a cable and not a sinew backing. A sinew backing is a covering glued over thd width of the bow's back which serves to relieve tension on the bow and and (allegedly) reinforce its surface by preventing splinters from lifing. A cable bracing, on the other hand, is just a cable that runs along the center of the bow which alleviates tension stress on the bow but does nothing to prevent splinters from rising.

This is especially relevent since driftwood is guaranteed to have violated grains; you literally cannot get to the good stuff without adzing or splitting off the worthless, punky outer layer. Dragging on this useless discussion about cable bows only distracts from the original topic of growth ring violation and I suspect that's shy some are choosing to push this as far as they can.

 No. But you just said both types of backing work the same way. They alleviate tension stress on the underlying wood. Which is good if it is violated or tension weak.

They work the ssme way but the cordage does not afford the same reinforcement that a sinew or rawhide covering does. That's the thing. A sinew layer glued over the bow provides non-working protection on top of the tension relief that atretching sinew provides. A cable doesn't offer that, so it's not a good comparison.