Author Topic: Elm  (Read 12248 times)

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Offline PatM

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Re: Elm
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2016, 05:57:44 pm »
Marc, Do you get Rock Elm where you are or is it too far north? It has corky branches and really stands out. Elm with just corky bark seems like it's just American Elm that has that attribute enhanced.
 American Elm apparently only hybridizes in a lab scenario.  Red Elm will cross with Siberian elm in the wild though.

   Some of it has to do with when the species set their seeds. American Elm is not in sync with the others naturally.

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: Elm
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2016, 07:52:08 pm »
Rock Elm is supposed to grow up here Pat but I can't really say I've seen any.  I have cut some Elm that is as dense as Rock Elm but it didn't have the characteristics of the tree.
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Offline raylbird

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Re: Elm
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2016, 12:22:05 am »
Glad to hear your experiences with Elm variations. I spent a lot of time with Elm and many of them made horrible bows. Never broke an Elm bow but some of the wood is so weak and feels spongy when drawing them, like wet wood even after drying out for a year in the house. The good Elm I have found I believed to be Winged Elm, smaller leaves and harder, heavier wood. The best thing about the wood for me is the pretty grain.

Limbit

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Re: Elm
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2016, 02:23:44 am »
I've been using staves removed from a large diameter Chinese elm tree (Ulmus parvifolia) I received several years ago after it blew down during a typhoon here in Taiwan. I was really impressed by the wood's beauty and bendability, but the stuff sets worse than anything I've ever used to date. I tried steam bending recurves into one of the staves and some strange gelatinous substance emerged during steaming...not anything like the oily pigment that emerges from wood during steaming, this was like a jello that stuck to the wood. I get the feeling the woods chemical properties allow it to retain moisture in humid climates similar to what hickory will do and hence take a lot of set. I am going to try doing a good heat treating session for my last few staves. Hopefully that helps. I was very disappointed in it and was looking forward to getting a pretty bow out of it.

Offline sleek

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Re: Elm
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2016, 04:41:42 am »
Without reading here much, I will say this. Red elm = crap. Leave it. Any other, is decent. I have made a few of a species I cant Id, and its pure gold. Osage cant do what this stuff can. Of course, this stuff cant split like osage either, so there is that...
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mikekeswick

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Re: Elm
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2016, 04:57:10 am »
Wych elm is a European species Ulmus glabra. The different types can all pollinate each other too so identifying them is tricky to say the least. Our two main types are wych elm and small leaved elm.
funnily enough there is little variation between the wood here. It is pretty much all excellent. I have only ever had one low density tree and it bent like a noodle, took loads of set and ended up getting burnt!

Offline Dakota Kid

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Re: Elm
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2016, 05:23:12 am »
I've harvested both rock elm and american elm here on the south side of lake erie. I'm pretty sure we have slippery  and winged elm as well, but haven't come across them yet. American elm is actually quite common here, but only up to 12" in diameter. I can count on one hand the number of trees I've found larger than that. Dutch elm disease tends to take them out when they reach full maturity. There's three trees in an area I am allowed to cut in that are approaching a foot in diameter. They are under the canopy, 30 feet tall, straight and branch free most of the way up. There may be as many as 30+ staves between them. I'm keeping a close eye on them for signs of beetles. Chances are I will harvest them this spring regardless.

I've only made one bow out of elm so far and it was with the rock variety. It was supposed to be my trade bow for this year, but it came in way under weight. I still have the sister stave. I'll have to dig it out and check the rings. Thanks for the info Mark. I was beginning to wonder why everyone speaks so highly of elm based on the results I had. Chances are I just had undesirable growth ring characteristics. I'll be checking out the remainder of may elm staves and choosing one for another try.
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Offline PatM

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Re: Elm
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2016, 08:23:38 am »
We have a lot of Elm here and it reaches larger sizes too. I wouldn't waste time cutting larger stuff though. The better wood is in smaller trees.

  Really hard to tell how many trees are actually resistant to the blight but many look very promising going by their size and proximity to diseased trees.
   
 We do have a database identifying trees over a certain size that are still healthy.  Few people probably realize what a majestic tree it can grow into.

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: Elm
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2016, 09:29:41 am »
Another thing I have noticed is that because Elm is so tension strong it does seem to make a better bow if the back has a crown.  If the crown is too high though then there is a chance of it pulling a splinter if the bow is too highly stressed

There is a tree not far from me that is approaching 2' in diameter.  It's growing in a field by itself and that may be its saving grace.  As Pat says though, I don't believe that wood from a large tree is the way to go with Elm.  All the better bows I have made were from trees under 8" in diameter.
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

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Offline PatM

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Re: Elm
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2016, 10:26:11 am »
Some of the towns in Nova Scotia still have those giant trees lining the streets. I was surprised to see that the growth rings on them only indicated about 40-45 years of growth with rings about half an inch thick. The open growing conditions really favor fast growth.

Offline BowEd

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Re: Elm
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2016, 10:34:54 am »
The red elm in Iowa will make a bow if long enough and wide enough.Usually from under 10" trees.It is very elastic but just does'nt have the strength seems like.I hav'nt had it chrysal any but I'm pretty sure it will.Better suited for kids or womens' bows.Not the greatest taking way too much set even after heat treating.It'll have a half inch of sapwood and a light brown heartwood.Nice and straight staves easily gotten though.
I once gave a red elm bow 7" of heat treated reflex and through tillering it lost 6" of it.Not good at all.Could of been the design but same design on other woods held up lots better.
Now a winged elm I did[think it was from South Carolina] held up very well.Just as good as osage.It seemed almost like hickory in a lot of ways.It was that dense.
Many elm do stand dead here too and are firewood and are a devil to split,or homes for the woodpeckers.Morel mushrooms are found around them also.
BowEd
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Ed

Offline Onebowonder

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Re: Elm
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2016, 11:04:54 am »
<snip>...or homes for the woodpeckers.Morel mushrooms are found around them also.

Mmmmmmm..... Morels!!! :D  -OneBow

Offline BowEd

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Re: Elm
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2016, 11:27:03 am »
Not to change the purpose of this thread here but many abandoned farm places here with overgrown groves here contain lots of morels with many red elms growing there.Some enthusiasts make supplemental living from selling the mushroom.
In all fairness to the elm though they have served a different type purpose here in Iowa.Other than being made into bows.Being excellent wind breaks for rural farm yards.That and the silver maple[I call them coon den trees].They grow fast and establish themselves quickly.Reasons being that there are so many dead ones clustered around now.In southern Iowa they seem to live longer and repopulate themselves better than northern Iowa.Could be the disease is established better up there.It is more diverese and populated with different trees overall here in southern Iowa which may be a factor too.
Three elms here as far as I can figure though.American elm/chinese elm/and the red elm.
I'm still wanting another winged elm stave though.Great stuff.
BowEd
You got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Ed

Offline Jim Davis

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Re: Elm
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2016, 09:07:55 pm »
Since I think there is a lot of overlapping of common names for these trees, I thought the definitive word from the Forest Products Laboratory of the US Forest Service might be useful, so here is the text dealing with the elms:



 

 
 
Ulmus spp.
 
 
 
this page uses English units of measure
 
click here to view the file in metric units
 

 
 
Family: Ulmaceae
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
click to print or download the file in .pdf format
 

 
 
Elm
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Elm (Ulmus spp.) contains about 45 species native to Asia [11], Europe and the Mediterranean [6], South and Central America [7] and North America [7]. All species look alike microscopically. The word ulmus is the classical Latin name.

Soft Elms

Ulmus americana-American elm, American soft elm, American weeping elm, American white elm, Florida elm, gray elm, gray hard elm, rock elm, springwood, soft elm, swamp elm, water elm, white elm

Ulmus rubra-gray elm, Indian elm, it slips ooo-hoosk-ah, moose elm, red elm, red wooded elm, rock elm, slippery elm, soft elm, sweet elm

Hard Elms

Ulmus alata-cork elm, mountain elm, red elm, southern elm, wahoo, wahoo elm, water elm, whahoo, winged elm, witch elm

Ulmus crassifolia-American red elm, basket elm, cedar elm, red elm, rock elm, small leaved elm, southern rock elm, Texas elm, water elm

Ulmus serotina-Red elm, September elm

Ulmus thomasii-Canadian rock elm, cliff elm, cork elm, corkbark elm, corky elm, corky barked elm, hickory elm, northern cork elm, northern corkbark elm, rock

There is also mechanical data for the elms on the same page, here:

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/research/centers/woodanatomy/techsheets_display.php?geo_category_id=2&genus_commonname_criteria=c&sorting_rule=1a

As listed above, winged elm is also know here in the states as witch elm. The mechanical dats seems to place this elm first  in bending strength.
Jim Davis

Kentucky--formerly Maine

Offline Ippus

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Re: Elm
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2016, 10:12:42 pm »
Anybody got a solid read on Siberian Elm (U. pumila)? Tbb IV had a lot of good to say about elm in general, but nothing about this specifically.

It's absolutely everywhere in SE Idaho (invasive, aka biggest weed in Idaho), and I just got permission to cut one from the Urban Forester here (about 3" thick and dead-on straight, maybe 25' tall).

I'm getting the impression from the comments on here that it doesn't like to split straight, so can you recommend any particular techniques for getting it to stave thickness?
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