compression wood laminated bows

[FilipT]

I will get access soon to the pinus sylvestris, is that good compression wood? What should I put as backing? Mind that I live in Croatia, so no hickory and such...

[stuckinthemud]

Had a quick look at the yew - its very dark in colour, I'll try and post some pics tomorrow

[stuckinthemud]

Had a good look at the yew; there is compression wood in it, but not over a long enough section to make a bow 

[Frodolf]

Ah, then I understand, PatM! Sorry about the misunderstanding. That's a good point about humidity. In the PP thread mentioned in the OP there are references to Dmitriev-Sadovnikov's description of how an ostjak bow is made (NW Russia?). This text has been translated to Swedish (my native language). What is interesting is that both the compression wood (spruce) and birch are cut to about 2" thick staves and dried only three days! So basically the bow is made from completely green wood. Another interesting thing is that, in the translation, the birch is cut "flat" and the compression wood rounded. I take this to mean the birch is decrowned.

Another thing to bear in mind is that from the Sámi area (northern Scandinavia) there is only one complete bow found. This bow was bought mid 19th century by an aristocrat on tour in the north. It's called Örbyhusbĺgen, the Örbyhus bow. The only other bows found has been fragments, and then only the compression wood because the birch has rotted away. These fragments where mostly found in marshes during road constructions, as far as I understand it. Why is there only one complete specimen left of a weapon that was still in use in the early 20th century? The reason is probably because the old timers stored their bows in the wet peat in the marshes in order to maintain a high level of moisture. These weapons weren't hanging on the wall when not in use. This is probably not only good for the compression wood/reflex, but also for the elasticity of the birch. I think it's of importance to understand that the conditions under which this type of bow was used were/are quite extreme. Precipitation in Sápmi, Sámi land, is about 2-5 times that in the south of Sweden, and temperatures can drop to –45 °C in the winter. And the Sámi were mostly nomadic or semi-nomadic meaning they did not have the option to cut staves and dry them over a long period of time, at least not down to 7-10 % MC like we're used to do nowadays. They HAD to use wood wetter than that. As a side note, Sámi also made skis from compression pine. This type of ski is much more durable when traveling on hard snow crust in the spring than birch on pine skis. These skis where also stored in peat, probably because of the same reason – they where also made from pretty wet wood, and to maintain the shape in the summer they buried them in peat.

So there is definitely something going on with high moisture levels in this type of bow. Another example of bow innovation to work under specific climatic and ecological conditions.

[PatM]

 I thought examples of these bows exist in museums or are  they reconstructions? That thread on Plaleoplanet showed some examples that looked about 100 years old.
 The AMNH collection also has many examples of the style if not actual Sami bows. Is the construction not more of a universal style for that area rather than just for one tribe?

[Frodolf]

What is the AMNH collection?

I'm probably confusing you a little bit. When we're talking about the northern eurasian bow, we're actually talking about bows from an area the size of continental USA, with change. With the wording "Fenno-ugric" I think one looks more to the bows to the west in this area. There are of course variations in bow design from such a large area, containing numerous different bow hunting cultures, and languages – same bows are 7 feet tall, others are 4 feet; some are recurves, others straight; some bendy handle bows, others stiff, some glue the siyahs this way, others that way, etc. But there are commonalities, and that's why we can talk about this kind of bow one type of bow. What they have in common, as far as I understand it, is the use of compression wood for the belly (I've heard of spruce, pine, lark, and juniper) and most commonly birch for the back, and siyahs from birch or cherry. The bows in the pictures from museums are from the russian side of things. Bows undisputedly Sámi (northern Scandinavia) are very rare, as far as I know. And I've sought information on this topic as good as I can for the last 5 years. From the reading I've done on the subject, there are about a dozen or so finds in total – and all but one are fragments. And even within this group of bows, there are significant variations in design.

What I find interesting is that even though there are variations in design, the different bow cultures might have a lot in common in the way the made there bows, leading back to the "logic" of how compression wood works. And this "logic" is different from the one bowyers brought up on a strict diet of TBB is used to. :-)

That's my two cents about that anyway. Feel free to disagree! Sorry for the confusion, and the thread drift.

[Frodolf]

BTW, stuckinthemud, I think silver birch is fine for backing on this type of bow. I think that is the type of birch most commonly used, the most common kind in northern euroasia. Either that or betula pubescens, which are pretty darn hard to tell from each other. The problem with birch is always the compression, but if you let some compression pine take care of that you're fine.

I think there were some discussion about this in the PP thread, but if you want to recreate a fenno-ugric bow the most important element is the use of compression wood in the belly. Ipe and birch will surely make a beautiful bow, but you can't really claim it's fenno-ugric. The reasoning is that c ompression wood has such a strange set of properties in bows that exchanging it for something else makes you kind of miss the point. Or something like that.

[stuckinthemud]

I'm thinking that if I ripped a couple of inches of heartwood off a thick yew stave I have, I'd be able to build a longbow from the outside of the stave and back the heartwood with silver birch  and make a really beautiful laminate bow  - it would be a much nicer option than axing out the longbow and leaving the heartwood as a pile of splinters.  Will just need to go harvest a wind-blown birch - there's always a few fall down over the winter near here.

[PatM]

What is the AMNH collection?

I'm probably confusing you a little bit. When we're talking about the northern eurasian bow, we're actually talking about bows from an area the size of continental USA, with change. With the wording "Fenno-ugric" I think one looks more to the bows to the west in this area. There are of course variations in bow design from such a large area, containing numerous different bow hunting cultures, and languages – same bows are 7 feet tall, others are 4 feet; some are recurves, others straight; some bendy handle bows, others stiff, some glue the siyahs this way, others that way, etc. But there are commonalities, and that's why we can talk about this kind of bow one type of bow. What they have in common, as far as I understand it, is the use of compression wood for the belly (I've heard of spruce, pine, lark, and juniper) and most commonly birch for the back, and siyahs from birch or cherry. The bows in the pictures from museums are from the russian side of things. Bows undisputedly Sámi (northern Scandinavia) are very rare, as far as I know. And I've sought information on this topic as good as I can for the last 5 years. From the reading I've done on the subject, there are about a dozen or so finds in total – and all but one are fragments. And even within this group of bows, there are significant variations in design.

What I find interesting is that even though there are variations in design, the different bow cultures might have a lot in common in the way the made there bows, leading back to the "logic" of how compression wood works. And this "logic" is different from the one bowyers brought up on a strict diet of TBB is used to. :-)

That's my two cents about that anyway. Feel free to disagree! Sorry for the confusion, and the thread drift.

  American Museum of Natural History.
  I understand  if no Sami examples exist but figured bows of the same construction might adequately represent the style if the same materials and construction is used.
  Kind of like a Plains bow.  If no actual Sioux bow existed any of a number of other bows still represent the style well enough.
 
  Plus I believe the Sami used bows as trade items so who knows if a surviving bow from another area or tribe might actually be a Sami bow.
 

[Frodolf]

Sound great, Stuck! I bet it'll be a beautiful bow!

PatM, I agree. There are many surviving examples of the style of bow. I have many Sámi friends, from a specific area of Sápmi, so my interest and attention has always been drawn to learning more about the bows from that particular region. That's just me.

[FilipT]

Are there some build a longs for such a bow?

[PatM]

There used to be a picture series on Paleoplanet depicting the  process very well but the general process is just a simple laminate with added tips. Nothing too complicated.

  There is a thread on that site showing the basic style being made(using Ipe and Elm) with added sinew which may or may not have been a feature  of some of these bows.
 
 My trade bow was inspired by this style. Basically all of the features of a composite without horn.

[willie]

I'm thinking that if I ripped a couple of inches of heartwood off a thick yew stave I have, I'd be able to build a longbow from the outside of the stave and back the heartwood with silver birch  and make a really beautiful laminate bow  - it would be a much nicer option than axing out the longbow and leaving the heartwood as a pile of splinters.  Will just need to go harvest a wind-blown birch - there's always a few fall down over the winter near here.

Excellent idea, Stuck. I would like to find a source for yew heartwood suitable for use as belly lams. and osage too.

[DC]

Once in a while you can find Yew in a slash pile from logging. Because they've been manhandled by big machines the sapwood is all chewed up. Perfect for this.

[loefflerchuck]

Cherry is stronger in compression than tension. Although it may have been used for siyas in this paper.