Tillering so that the bow is balanced in the hand...

[loon]

No medieval English bow had grips, and none show markers for arrow placement.

It's quite straightforward to find the arrow pass area on an unmarked bow, as you simply balance the braced bow on your middle finger, close your hand and that's where you shoot from. You learn the nocking point placement through lots of practice, and it all comes together instinctively.

How would you tiller a bow to work like this? I think there should be enough positive tiller to just throw the arrow above the bow hand to avoid fletchings cutting into it?

Maybe it'd be a bit different for high wrist vs low wrist...

Maybe the best way is trial and error rather than getting all spaghetti brained over it.

also this http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/tillering-symmetry.html still trying to wrap my head around it
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/symmetry-or-not.html

ELB.
Arrow pass 1" above centre.
Support the bow on the tiller tree where your hand will support the bow, pull the string from where your fingers will pull the string.
I prefer to allow the bow to rock on the tiller tree.
This post rom my blog illustrates it quite well and may be useful.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=symmetry
Del

[cadet]

Except medieval ELBs only survive in stylised pics, and Tudor bows out of the MR had marks at the arrow pass, no?
I don't think his theory necessarily holds; too many more variables.

[loon]

The marks are bowyers marks, not arrow pass marks.  Many of the MR bows don't have any, some are 1" above centre where the arrow would pass, some are on the belly. 

The best way to know where to shoot from is simply balance the bow, and shoot from 1" above geometric centre.

Maybe they had wear marks from arrows passing through..

Seems like a lot of bowyers time bows by trial and error. That likely works

[WillS]

No wear marks, virtually all the bows were brand new.

Positive tiller has nothing to do with "throwing the arrow over your hand."

[Del the cat]

The longer the bow the less critical it is 1" error change on an 80" bow is much less than 1" on an 60" bow.
This is a rather philosphical discussion, after all what is the nature of undersatnding?
Do we simply mean learning cause and effect? Or do we have to know why...?
After all the Australian Aborigine knows nothing of maths, physics or aerodynamics yet he can make a boomerang that will return.
It's a tricky line between saying "make it how you've been shown" to having at least some feel for how the variable effect performance.
Del

[loon]

No wear marks, virtually all the bows were brand new.

Positive tiller has nothing to do with "throwing the arrow over your hand."

If I'm getting cut by fletching, nocking higher works because I've tried it. I don't understand why some people say it doesn't. The bow should be tillered such that the arrow doesn't pass so close to the bow hand so as to cut it, and so that the limbs are timed, no? Unless you use a floppy rest or whatever...

But.. If the top limb is floppy and the bottom is stiff, then... the arrow goes down? I don't know. Maybe that doesn't even make sense. Should experiment. Maybe tiller doesn't have anything to do with the arrow going up or down like when I change my nock point? O_o

[WillS]

Changing the nocking point stops you getting cut because the arrow is leaving the bow differently.  It's not related to the tiller of the bow.

The tiller of a bow at full draw should show both limbs working the same amount when held in the hand.  That's what positive tiller is for - either you tiller perfectly symmetrically, holding the bow where the hand pressure will be and pulling the string where the arrow nock will be, or you tiller asymmetrically, holding the bow dead centre and pulling the string dead centre.  If you do the latter, you need to tiller the lower limb slightly stiffer, because when it's being held that limb is shorter.

If you have a bow that's been tillered correctly, at brace height it should look slightly uneven, but at full draw it should look perfectly symmetrical. 

[Dances with squirrels]

Great, more tiller misinformation

~~sigh~~

       

[sleek]

Great, more tiller misinformation

~~sigh~


       

How?

[bradsmith2010]

well where you put your hand and where you put the arrow effects the arrow flight,,
if the bow is pretty well tillered if you shoot it where it is balanced in the hand,, it should be pretty easy to tune,,
the longer bows are more forgiving about this,,
as the bow gets shorter,,the positive tiller will effect how the bow tunes up a bit more, or it seems the shorter bow is more sensitive to this,,for me the way I grip the bow this is my experience,,( and everyone has a different grip and pressure on the bow)
sometimes a negative tiller and nocking point too low, will make the arrow smack your hand,, or it does mine,,
if I am working on a bow and the arrow is not leaving really smooth I will make the tiller a bit more positive,, even if does not look like it needs it, it usually smooths the bow out and gets good arrow flight,,( I like to shoot the bow where it is balanced but may move the arrow up or down a bit to find the sweet spot)
every bow is different, and some shoot great with no appearance of positive tiller,, but I have a feeling there is positive tiller you just can't see it,,
and alot of this is effected with how good your release is,,,, and how you grip the bow,, every one puts a bit different pressure on the string so you see alot of different opinions on bow tuning, it really depends on how the person shoots,,
bottom line is, if the arrow comes off smooth and straight and does not make a noise coming off the bow,, the bow is tuned pretty well,, no matter what the tiller" looks" like or how it is balance or where the arrow rest is, ,the proof is in how the arrow shoots,, sometimes a few rules of thumb have to be broken to achieve good smooth arrow flight,,, trial an error being needed,,,, and with the more experience you have, ,the easier it is to achieve,,,
    Keep in mind also,, someone with good form and good release can shoot a wider range of arrows from a bow that might seem out of tune with someone else shooting the bow,, most of us have demonstrated that to ourselves,,
we start shooting a bow and it shoots badly,, after a few days of practice,, the same bow and arrows are flying great,,
without changing anything on the bow,,
   Ok I don't think I answered the question,, you would balance the bow in your hand,, mark the spot where the arrow is passing,, now adjust the bow tiller to more or less positive tiller till the bow shoots well,,,

[loon]

nice... yeah, I've had bows have horrible handshock one day and shoot okay another, think it depends a lot on how I grip them..

[George Tsoukalas]

I tiller the bow on my rope and pulley and pull from the center. I usually mark the arrow pass about 1.25 in above center. That is variable depending on tiller.

To make sure the bow is tillered properly for how I hold and draw, I have my daughter take a digi picture of me drawing the bow.

I aim to get an even tiller or have the bottom limb a 1/4" stiffer at full draw.

My bows have the handle in the center but yet are still balanced in the hand.

If I had to turn out 1000's of war bows I probably would not go through all of that effort.

Jawge