Author Topic: Strings  (Read 16636 times)

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Offline artcher1

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Re: Strings
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2008, 11:11:50 am »
Just my opinion here, and I'm not looking to pick a fight either but I'll have to disagree about the B-50. It's probably the best string material available today for selfbows. But only if'n you're looking for the best accuracy out of these types of bows (around-the-handle and not center cut). Linen and FF appears to be the best for speed. Personally, I haven't found anything in between and I really really really perfer to hit what I'm shooting at! Sometimes it's best to ask your arrow what it likes ;D!-ART B

Offline Kegan

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Re: Strings
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2008, 01:17:22 pm »
Okay- it seems that B50 has, for me, the qualities that I'm looking for, with linen after which. Cinsidering that- what do you all recomend for serving it? I've got some al thread from Cabela's left, but it's kinda expensive and I wonered if I could get away with something cheaper/easier to come by? Oh yeah- any tips on a Marc St. Louis string?

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Strings
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2008, 01:37:17 pm »
I use serving thread. Jawge
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Offline Hillbilly

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Re: Strings
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2008, 01:57:51 pm »
I like B50 myself. I know linen is a natural fiber, but if you buy it on a spool made in a factory, I don't see much difference. If I want a natural string, I'll twist up a groundhog hide or something. Never tried FF. Kegan, the best thing I have found for serving is the little rolls of linen cord that you can get in the craft section at Walmart for a couple bucks-I like it a lot better than regular serving thread.
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Offline artcher1

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Re: Strings
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2008, 02:04:52 pm »
I like the .018" crown serving for B-50 that 3-Rivers sells myself. It's a little expensive but makes a great serving. But nylon fishing line to the bow string itself can be used for serving. Just a note here, if I do make any more linen strings I doubt if I will even serve 'em. Just causes 'em to break in that area that muck quicker, or at least that's been my experience.-ART B

DCM

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Re: Strings
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2008, 03:06:57 pm »
Quietness I'd have to concede, based solely on the fact each of us "hears" differently.  Depending upon how old you are, and how much hearing you've lost, this can make a big difference.  Evidently I've lost my upper range hearing more so than my lower, at age 46.  Least that's what my wife and dotter say.  Too many hours spent around loud motors and traffic noise in my youth I suspect.  FF strings are smaller diameter, and consequently have a higher note or frequency, and this might account for my preference as much as anything.

In terms of total sound volume when you compare strings of equal mass, or a string/arrow combination of equal mass, I believe the difference is mostly one of harmonics, which can be mitigated with tuning.  One would have to concede optimum tuning in each scenario, but FF does offer the advantage of lower overall mass, allowing one to position some of that extra mass in the form of puffs or "silencers" strategically to dampen the natural harmonic.  It's a bit of a crap shoot sometimes admittedly depending upon the bow and arrow combo, but I've had better luck with quietness (given my unique perception of quietness) overall using FF, versus B50, particularly on high early draw weight bows.

I can see needing a fatter diameter to avoid splitting self nocks as well, but I generally double serve so that's a wash.  Plus I use plastic nocks.

I'd never considered how a string that is heavier, and has more creep and has more stretch could be more accurate.  Seems it would be a difficult thing to demonstrate, absent a shooting machine, and even then one must consider proper tuning is assumed in each scenario.  No question that changing to a FF string would change the tuning significantly.  I personally don't have great form, but I have no problem getting perfect arrow flight, and being able to shoot 50 grains more arrow and 10# more spine from the same bow, changing only the string as the price to pay.  The only target archer I know well enough personally to comment on his preference (Jeff Gibson from Arkansas has won a few notable titles I think, lots of regional tournies) swears by, or did, Spiderwire endless strings (ironically).  I don't think olympic archers go for higher mass, higher elasticity strings but I honestly don't know.

For the most part I prefer FF because it allows me to run a lower brace height and not interfere with my sleeves, wrist and thumb and because it dampens handshock in any bow significantly.  For a tillering string, particularly on longer bows, B50 stretches so much, 2" to 3", I find it difficult to first brace a new, and accordingly extra heavy bow, because I have to bend it so far beyond where I would with a FF string to reach the string groove.

But I humbly concede to anyone's preference, just curious what, besides antecdote, accounts for the preference for heavier, more elastic bow strings.

George I like to challenge dogma, challenge people actually to evaluate or re-evaluate their choices, their options, their opinions.  Time spent challenging one's assumptions, mundane things we frequently take for granted, is time well spent in my experience.

Offline Badger

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Re: Strings
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2008, 03:14:25 pm »
I like both linen and fast flight. Stetch is negligable in both of them, I have gotten to where I won't even shoot a bow with b-50. The stretch and sound just drive me nuts. Steve

Offline artcher1

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Re: Strings
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2008, 04:55:50 pm »
Just curious David, does Mr. Gibson shoot around-the-handle selfbows?

If one can shoot well enough then it's not difficult to see the difference between the two different strings. Or at least not for me. But if the B-50 string isn't well made and pre-stretched to begin with then I can see where you draw your conclusions.  A B-50 string with just enough twist in it to hold it's ends together and properly stretched will have very little creep. It only takes about two seconds to get most of the stretch out of a Dacron string when first fitted to the bow (just lay the braced bow across the thighs and press down on the tips). Rest is gone in around 30 min. of brace time and can be served any time after that.

Why does a string with some stretch in (again it goes back to how well a string is made and properly pre-stretched) it make for better accuracy? Some principle as a bow with string follow in it. Gives an arrow a softer and less violent send-off. And that's very important when you have an arrow in paradox (bending). Less important with closer to center-shot bows where less bending is occurring.   

But in the end, it all comes down to getting out and and doing a little experimenting with these different materials and then choose what works best for our own needs. -ART B

DCM

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Re: Strings
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2008, 06:06:52 pm »
Lots of room for personal preference Art, I agree completely.

Yes, Jeff and his dad Jim make and shoot selfbows.  In fact they were one of the first I met, first bows outside of my own I'd ever seen, at the Bobby Lofton shoot in MS, circa 1998 I think.  He would certainly agree with you on the string follow bows being more accuracy freindly.  I recall specifically a bow of his about 45# at his draw, honkin' big outer limbs for my tastes even then and about 1" of string follow.  I think his principle problem with stretchy strings was hand shock.

I think it's important to consider the tendancy for the string to follow the arrow, staying in the nock a bit longer, as the string elongates at the end of the power stroke beyond brace height.  This is what slaps my thumb, in particular applications, and contributes shock in my view.  This would seem counter productive for good repeatability, or accuracy.  I would think you'd want the string to stop abruptly, versus staying with the arrow as the string and bow begin to vibrate in recoil at the bottom of the power stroke.

It's easy to form strong opinions, strong preferences and assume any challenge is not well considered or researched. 

But in this case I did use B50 for a couple of years.  I too prefer strings with just enough twist to hold the loops, and generally loose strands between.  I have not found B50 to demonstrate so llittle creep as you describe, finding it would continue to creep for weeks in a selfbow application where I didn't leave the bow braced continuously.  Also in cases where I hung the string from the ceiling and suspended 80#, and 120#, respectively in a number of tests with 12, 14, 16 strand strings in periods of 2 hours to overnight.  Yes, you can get all the creep out of a well made B50 string, but it definately takes more effort than with a lower stretch material.  This is thoroughly tested by the industry, similarly string mass and elasticity, using standardized methods and frankly not a subject worth dispute. 

Ultimately when we read about things like this with clear contradiictions, it becomes a question of whether we value that testimony over our own experience.  When done repectfully, airing these differences, I think some good can come from shaking up the status quo.  But frankly I find little value in a preference, or in particular voicing a preference for a particular material or method in the absence of any objective consideration of the options and alternatives.  It's like deciding you don't like a book having never even read the title.  Not at all accusing you of this Art, or anyone else in particular.  But it happens, all to frequently in my view.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 06:10:06 pm by DCM »

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Strings
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2008, 10:53:40 pm »
"George I like to challenge dogma, challenge people actually to evaluate or re-evaluate their choices, their options, their opinions.  Time spent challenging one's assumptions, mundane things we frequently take for granted, is time well spent in my experience."

DCM, you don't leave a conservative, status quo, the less change  the better kinda guy much wiggle room. LOL. :) Jawge
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DCM

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Re: Strings
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2008, 11:13:21 pm »
Nonsense George.  The secret is to simply ignore what I post.  ;-)

Offline mullet

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Re: Strings
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2008, 11:21:28 pm »
 I'm still useing B-50, I have five rolls. ;) ;D
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Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Strings
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2008, 11:36:34 pm »
DCM, LOL. I just put on my earphones. That's my ignore mode. It's worked for 36 years. Just don't tell her. :) Jawge
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Offline artcher1

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Re: Strings
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2008, 11:47:48 pm »
If a B-50 string slaps your thump David then I can certainly see why you would perfer a fast flight type of string. Nothing wrong with that at all. Don't get me wrong now, but I believe one should do whatever it takes to enjoy shooting these type of bows.

But that B-50 string shouldn't be slapping your thumb. And it doesn't take a 100# weight and days of use to stretch a new B-50 string out. Only seconds! A well made pre-stretched B-50 string should have a crisp arrow release similar to the non-stretch strings but with a softer twang to it. So with that last statement I hope you see how I came by my preference.-ART B

Offline Badger

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Re: Strings
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2008, 01:24:30 am »
    When I said I didn't like the sound of the b 50 is was just a thing of taste, I was reffering to the sound I get at brace when I plunk the string. I used b 50 and linen both till about two ears ago when I strted using fast flight. I just fell in love with it. As far as sizing the string, I just hook mine to a nail and give it some hard jerks before and durring the final twisting and it seem to never need adjusting after that. I do have to use a slightly shorter string with b 50 and that makes it a bit harder to brace a bow. Steve