Author Topic: Nock point/limb balance  (Read 10984 times)

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Offline Badger

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2016, 09:08:30 am »
Tuomo, I agree with you. The limbs will both return at the same time. They will always have exactly the same amount of tension. Any slack in the string will happen after the arrow leaves the bow. I never think of limb timing in terms of when they return. I do think of limb timing in terms of how they unwind.

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2016, 10:57:22 am »
"They will always have exactly the same amount of tension."

I disagree again. They will only have the same amount of tension during the draw if they're balanced in strength relative to the archer's holds. I can easily apply more tension/load to one limb than the other by changing the fulcrums in my bow and string hands. For instance, if the bow tips the top limb forward as I draw and I grip the bow tightly and apply enough heal pressure that the handle area stands straight, I will have applied more bend, load and tension to the bottom limb. Put load cells in the string and see for yourself.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline PlanB

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2016, 11:16:48 am »
I don't use a visual nocking point any more -- meaning a knot, etc. on the string. I just place the arrow slightly above square to the string visually.  I think I probably adjust the actual nocking point unconsciously depending on how the last arrow flew. Strings can change, and so can limbs for various reasons, humidity, etc. So my guess is I may not be nocking at the exact same point every time I string the bow. This didn't answer DC's question. But it's a preface to why I have an opinion about it, and what that opinion comes from.

In shooting a new character bow with asymmetric limbs I built early on, I found that I needed a low knock point, rather than the more standard slightly high one to get decent arrow accuracy. But the feathers did hit the hand fairly hard. If I tried to nock higher, the flight suffered.

Because the limbs were asymmetric, I wasn't sure what to do to correct this problem. Since the bow was also under weight, I was not keen to tiller either limb further. I was thinking of piking one limb as a possibility. But didn't know which one to pike. Before I did that, though, I tried shooting the bow upside down, and was surprised to get accurate shots and a normal square to the string nocking point, and light feather contact.

Unfortunately the handle had been carved biased to gripping the other way round. What really surprised me though was that the upper limb was now shorter than the lower, and if you figure in the movement of the location of the arrow pass on the bow the effective length of the upper limb was greatly reduced.

What I wasn't counting on was that the grip was forcing a lower contact point than I had been using before, which was more of a pinch.

Sorry DC, I'm still  not answering your question. Because I'm still not sure of the answer to the specific of it. But what I did learn then, was that the handle shape can greatly affect the arrow flight and nocking point, and degree of limb asymmetry, too.

I'm sure this is obvious to the more experienced here, and they have settled on handle shapes and arrow pass location which they repeat consistently, so it doesn't become a question. And then setting a nock point at a specific distance that they have found through experience works best is consistent with that set of givens. But I think it's not possible to separate nocking point, limb symmetry, tillering, handle shape for bows built by different and less experienced people.

If you think about it, bow-hand fletching contact, and arrow flight are two different effects, both of which may be altered independent of each other by raising or lowering a nock point on the string. So a single answer -- tiller or pike one or the other limb -- might not solve the problem, or might induce another, if the grip or symmetry is a cause.

I have to admit that lately I have been building symmetric length limbed bows, and I am paying particular attention to how the grip hits my hand. And, at least for me, the results tillering and shooting have become more consistent.

Sorry to add one more non-answer here to your very direct and simple seeming question.

I love it when a plan B comes together....

Offline loon

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2016, 11:48:28 am »
I think, assuming the grip doesn't rotate while the bow is drawn, if the nocking point seems too low  then the upper limb is too weak? Meh, I should build a small test bow..

I GUESS you'd then have to pike the upper limb. You could maybe make one of those bulby sinew nocks that aren't permanent, lower on the top limb instead of piking? just to test

That would also explain how I don't have to nock so high on my horn bow when I choose top limb as weaker one

edit: Actually, from what I learned from that tillering thread, I think the lower limb is weaker if you have to nock low for good arrow flight. Because the bow rotates on its fulcrum... or something, when it is not balanced? ie the stiffer limb appears to be pulled in more with the vertical as the 'arrow'
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 12:57:01 pm by loon »

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2016, 12:14:44 pm »
Some of the answers to our questions are within these posts. The problem of course is that much of the info offered is contradictory.

I plan to do a bunch of testing on this subject soon. I have two test bows glued up, sensors, meters, and such wired and rigged. I just have a few more things to make before I get started.... well that and the other 10,000 things I have to do.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2016, 12:20:12 pm »
Don't forget the special gift you were going to send me. How's about you do that first, then play mad scientist :)

I cant answer any of the questions in this post. I cant even answer why I do what I do. Its all feel for me, however it works out in the end.

Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline wizardgoat

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2016, 02:13:53 pm »
I'm with Pearly. Not too sure why I do what I do. Sometimes I think I nailed a bow, but just can't seem to figure out why it's not shooting perfectly, and other times they just do.
When you make and shoot a lot of bows, you really start to feel and notice the small things.
Maybe one day I'll dive deeper into that stuff, but for now I'm jusy happy when I make a bow that shoots great.

Offline Badger

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2016, 02:16:07 pm »
"They will always have exactly the same amount of tension."

I disagree again. They will only have the same amount of tension during the draw if they're balanced in strength relative to the archer's holds. I can easily apply more tension/load to one limb than the other by changing the fulcrums in my bow and string hands. For instance, if the bow tips the top limb forward as I draw and I grip the bow tightly and apply enough heal pressure that the handle area stands straight, I will have applied more bend, load and tension to the bottom limb. Put load cells in the string and see for yourself.

   The difference when you are drawing a bow is that you can apply pressure in more than one direction. When you shoot the arrow suddenly it no longer matter where you are holding the bow, the arrow will instantly go up or down according to relative strength of limbs and they will instantly become identical in tension regardless of their shape.

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2016, 03:38:56 pm »
At the shot, it may not matter as much how you are holding the bow, unless you were and continue to torque it, but it still matters a lot how you HELD it, string too, when you loaded each limb with energy.... and WILL matter until those forces are expended. When one limb is storing more energy, it has more to transfer, and won't be instantly, magically equalized just because we let go of the string. The proof that a disparity between them isn't INSTANTLY equalized when the string slides free of the hand lies in the effects produced... which are partly associated with what you said, Steve, "the arrow will instantly go up or down according to the relative strength of the limbs." Yep, that is one of the effects of unbalanced limb strength relative to the shooter.

If they were instantly equalized when the string was released, there would be no such affect on the arrow.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline Badger

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2016, 06:46:56 pm »
At the shot, it may not matter as much how you are holding the bow, unless you were and continue to torque it, but it still matters a lot how you HELD it, string too, when you loaded each limb with energy.... and WILL matter until those forces are expended. When one limb is storing more energy, it has more to transfer, and won't be instantly, magically equalized just because we let go of the string. The proof that a disparity between them isn't INSTANTLY equalized when the string slides free of the hand lies in the effects produced... which are partly associated with what you said, Steve, "the arrow will instantly go up or down according to the relative strength of the limbs." Yep, that is one of the effects of unbalanced limb strength relative to the shooter.

If they were instantly equalized when the string was released, there would be no such affect on the arrow.

  It happens withing the first couple of inches of power stroke and the arrow has to move up and down for this to happen.

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2016, 08:48:27 pm »
then hand shock is still a mystery,, :)

Offline Badger

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2016, 08:58:53 pm »
then hand shock is still a mystery,, :)


   I have my own theory on handshock. A few years ago I started using the gizmo to tiller bows cause it was easy and quick. I got the whole limb working and not much set. All of a sudden I have handshock. If a bow starts to bend near the outer limbs and progressively bends inward toward the handle it wont have any shock as a rule. beautiful round tillers are wrist breakers. The elyptical tiller unfolds the way I described and I feel is best for a number of reasons including no handshock.

Offline loon

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2016, 09:23:22 pm »
exaggerated picture of what my horn bow looks like (not as unbalanced) - the top limb bends more. I imagine if I shot it upside down, I'd have to nock much higher, but I need to test



I imagine with a weaker top limb, it shoots a bit up more than otherwise, requiring a lower nocking point, am I right?

I don't have to nock very high for the arrow to go straight and not hit my hand. Yet it has handshock, maybe because of the twisted top limb. Maybe because the tips are rather thick and horn covered
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 10:24:22 pm by loon »

Offline Badger

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2016, 09:45:54 pm »
exaggerated picture of what my horn bow looks like (not as unbalanced) - the top limb bends more. I imagine if I shot it upside down, I'd have to nock much higher, but I need to test



I imagine with a weaker top limb, it shoots a bit up more than otherwise, requiring a lower nocking point, am I right?

I don't have to nock very high for the arrow to go straight and not hit my hand. Yet it has handshock, maybe because of the twisted top limb

  The limbs are probably moving a lot after the arrow leaves the bow. Once the arrow leaves all kinds of things can happen. The string can go slack and each limb will do its own thing.

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Nock point/limb balance
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2016, 05:42:21 am »
"It happens withing the first couple of inches of power stroke and the arrow has to move up and down for this to happen."

I know the nock end of the arrow moves up or down upon release if the bow isn't balanced relative to the shooter, I just don't believe it's instantly resolved.

Further, for you to say that the arrow DOES move up or down upon return of the limbs counters your theory of the arrow instantly balancing relative limb strength because it's the only thing holding back the string. If it did, it wouldn't move up or down. Pick your battle.

Since bows can be a little unbalanced or a LOT, I don't think we can say the effects of that unbalance is resolved in all of them within the first couple inches without hard proof... and personally I don't believe it at all anyway :^) I'm confident negative effects on the arrow are produced if the limbs aren't balanced, that it's also a major cause of handshock (something else I've tested), and design and tiller my bows to eliminate these things as much as possible. Handshock due to limb imbalance also kinda blows your 'instant fix" and "instant arrow balance" theories out of the water, so I understand why you're coming up with your own handshock theory  :)

I've seen bows so unbalanced that they reveal themselves before the first inch of draw and continue to get worse, and you've got your work cut out for ya to prove to me that this resolves on its own in the first inch of return from full draw. No way. Good luck.

Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer