Author Topic: Limb length principle question  (Read 6998 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jefficus

  • Member
  • Posts: 28
Limb length principle question
« on: April 11, 2016, 12:24:43 pm »
I just want to make sure I'm thinking about this the right way.  It's widely said that (draw length)''x2 is a good basis for total limb length.  Realistically some bows are better off with more, and others can be great shooters with less.  So here's my question:  is this for sure about total limb length, or WORKING limb length?  I've always assumed it meant total length, and had to do with string angle and distributing tension rather than visible bending, but I'm hesitating.  I've only made two straight pyramid bows and they're both overbuilt 72'' long because I just wanted them to work haha.  But I'd like to design better.

Basically, if making a bow for 28'' draw, and the limbs are each 28'' long from the fades, does every inch need to be bending or holding tension to some degree? or is it more about the length, since the tension is naturally distributed through the whole limb automatically? For that same hypothetical bow, say if it had flipped tips or a static recurve to it, that would reduce the inches of each limb that could do work, right? Because the last 3-6 inches are static.  I know that the tips aren't really supposed to be doing much work anyway, and that usually the most happens mid-limb depending on the profile of the bow.  But considering that the hypothetical bow would then only have 22-25'' per limb AVAILABLE for bending, would that still work?  or do you design 28'' of limb from the fades to the start of the static portion?  I feel like that's not right, because then how would recurves ever be shorter than longbows?  I guess I just want some of you more experienced guys to put my mind at ease that I'm thinking about this the right way haha.

Somehow I feel like I wouldn't even think about this making a straight bow, I guess because leaving the tips stiffer in that situation, I assume they're just doing some work I can't see with my eyes.  But for a truly static tip or recurve design, it makes me hesitate.

Thanks in advance for your input!

Offline PEARL DRUMS

  • Member
  • Posts: 14,079
  • }}}--CK-->
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2016, 12:31:37 pm »
Working limb, for me, is the limb from past the fade to the tip. So a typical 28" draw bow would figure this way. 28 x 2 = 56" + 4" grip + 2"(x2) fades = 64" ntn or 66" ttt.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline PEARL DRUMS

  • Member
  • Posts: 14,079
  • }}}--CK-->
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2016, 12:39:57 pm »
As far as statics, I build them as long as I would a flat bow. Adding statics to the end of a limb doesn't do anything but change the string angle and maybe add some tension at brace if done right. Adding them to a bow doesn't mean you can shorten the recipe because its a static. On a typical flat bow you leave 5-8" stiff on each limb tip. Bending that same portion into a recurve doesn't add that much stress as its already stiff and un- bending.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline Pat B

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 37,633
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2016, 02:17:03 pm »
Actually adding recurves stresses the limbs more because it bends the limbs farther when drawn.
 Pearlie's got the working limb thing right. I usually figure draw length x2 + about 10% for t/t bow length.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline Frodolf

  • Member
  • Posts: 78
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2016, 04:41:01 pm »
Personally, I rather err on the side of making a bow "too" long than too short. As long as you keep those tips low-mass, a few inches of extra length only means a sturdier bow. A too short bow means a bow in pieces, or the ever-so-frustrating chrysals showing up after the first layer of finish (gah!).

I don't really have much smart math to figure it out, I sort of look at the stave (crown, knots, "character"), the type of wood, and my desired draw weight and take it from there. Somewhere along, though, I figured that 65-67" ntn is a good length for a pyramid design of medium weight at 28" draw, medium quality wood (elm, ash, juniper). This for a stiff handle (8-10") and 6-8" of stiff tips. For an extra inch of draw length, I add 1,5 inch ntn. For an inch less draw, reduce ntn with 1,5 inch. Parallel limbs half the limb length generally means I can shorten the bow a bit, but then stacking might become an issue so I'll usually add a bit of reflex/recurve to the tips.

But it all depends. I sell bows almost exclusively to folk who shoot at targets on a lawn, not hunters (hunting with bow and arrow is illegal in Sweden). I can certainly see how pushing the wood a little to make the bow shorter is a good thing for a hunter. Also, when you sell bows to people it's sort of bad business to design bows on the limit of what the wood can take. A little redundancy is good.

I think this thing with making bows short is something a bit more common in America than over here. That's just my feeling about it. Maybe euros are more influences by English archery, with their 80"-ers, and Americans more influenced by native american archery? Not sure.   

Offline PatM

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,737
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2016, 05:08:09 pm »
On a typical flat bow you leave 5-8" stiff on each limb tip. Bending that same portion into a recurve doesn't add that much stress as its already stiff and un- bending.

   This seems wrong if the recurve is an actual significant hook.

Offline Badger

  • Member
  • Posts: 8,124
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2016, 05:24:47 pm »
    Pat, I think Pearlie has it right. It is the overall amount of reflex behind the back of the bow that has the most effect. For my mass theory I add wood for reflex whether it is recurve or just reflex doesn't matter.

Offline PatM

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,737
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2016, 05:42:49 pm »
  Really? It still seems off intuitively and  mathematically. Where's Joachim?  :D

Offline PEARL DRUMS

  • Member
  • Posts: 14,079
  • }}}--CK-->
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2016, 09:44:05 pm »
Dont bring me down with all the math crap, Pat....M

Imagine a static full drawn, now un-curl the last 7". The amount of limb bending wont change. At least I dont think it will :)
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline PatM

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,737
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2016, 10:21:45 pm »
Dont bring me down with all the math crap, Pat....M

Imagine a static full drawn, now un-curl the last 7". The amount of limb bending wont change. At least I dont think it will :)

 The amount  of limb length won't but the amount of BEND in that length will change.

Offline Jefficus

  • Member
  • Posts: 28
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2016, 12:15:37 am »
Frodolph what did you mean by "Parallel limbs half the limb length"?  Certainly you don't mean if I didn't taper the limbs then they could be 14'' long rather than 28'', right? haha

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,396
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2016, 12:54:57 am »
I think he meant "Parallel limbs FOR half the limb length" but I may be wrong.

Offline sleek

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,764
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2016, 01:02:27 am »
I always went with over all length of the bow tip to tip. Never had a problem. I made many 62"ttt bows that pulled 28 at a hunting draw. But this conversation cant be had without accounting for width.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline PEARL DRUMS

  • Member
  • Posts: 14,079
  • }}}--CK-->
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2016, 08:31:28 am »
Dont bring me down with all the math crap, Pat....M

Imagine a static full drawn, now un-curl the last 7". The amount of limb bending wont change. At least I dont think it will :)

 The amount  of limb length won't but the amount of BEND in that length will change.

I'd agree there. I think it is a small amount though, especially when comparing a heavily reflexed tip to a static tip. I think on average it would compare to drawing the same bow another inch farther when hooks are added.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline George Tsoukalas

  • Member
  • Posts: 9,425
    • Traditional and Primitive Archers
Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2016, 09:11:00 am »
PD gave a good starting point for a rigid handle bow from an excellent stave.

I would add an inch or 2 for heavily crowned staves and perhaps for staves with several knots and other imperfections.

Bend in the handle bows can be made shorter by at least a few inches depending on the condition of the stave.

The more bows you make the more you develop and intuitive feel for length.

Jawge
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 10:19:48 am by George Tsoukalas »
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!