Author Topic: elm bow tiller check (repairing a broken bow?!)  (Read 6240 times)

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Offline joachimM

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elm bow tiller check (repairing a broken bow?!)
« on: March 24, 2016, 11:10:25 am »
Hi folks,

this is flatbow style elm, 52". Limbs hardly narrowing for the first 10 cm (4") out of the fades, and then a pyramid to the 1 cm wide tips. Last 12 cm of the limbs are meant to be stiff.
Upper limb (left) happens to be 1" or so longer, because I laid out the measurements wrongly, but not a big deal I guess.
Currently draws 24" at 50-51#, which is about my intended draw weight and length for this bow.
The picture is a bit grainy and out of focus though, taken with bad light in my ill-lit workshop at night.
Lower limb (right) intentionally left a bit stiffer, but I don't usually do this so am a bit in doubt for the quality of this tiller. I was thinking of getting a bit more bend right out of the fades, but it's not a true pyramid bow, so it should have some elliptical tiller, right?

thanks for your thoughts on this one.
Joachim
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 05:49:49 pm by joachimM »

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: elm bow tiller check
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2016, 11:13:01 am »
The fades, especially the left, need to move a bit more. IMO.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: elm bow tiller check
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2016, 11:19:45 am »
Right limb is stiff all the way to the tip. Take some scrapes. You can leave it strung. I don't know which limb is the shorter one but I'd make that the bottom limb. Jawge
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Offline ajooter

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Re: elm bow tiller check
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2016, 11:44:42 am »
Left limb in the picture seems to be much stiffer from mid limb out.   That tip seems to be coming down much further and in then the other.  I like the right limb myself.

Offline Onebowonder

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Re: elm bow tiller check
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2016, 11:47:22 am »
Plus one to whomever said it needs to bend a bit more out of the fades.  I understand that the right limb is meant to be stiffer, but it looks exaggeratedly so right now.

OneBow

Offline sieddy

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Re: elm bow tiller check
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2016, 12:15:33 pm »
I don't have a clue as to the tiller! ::)
But it looks good to me and I hope it works out for ya!  :)
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Offline John Scifres

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Re: elm bow tiller check
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2016, 01:02:54 pm »
Right limb under left limb.


Left limb almost all bend is in the center third.  Little if none in the outer portion.

Right limb looks good overall but does't match the left.

20 scrapes full length on right.

10 scrapes near handle and outer third on left.

Repeat until they match.

Offline joachimM

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Re: elm bow tiller check
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2016, 05:00:57 pm »
Gentlemen, thanks for your advice, it's much appreciated.
Got the fades to bend more on both sides, and reduced the difference between both limbs.
The 1" shorter right limb still a tad stiffer. Before tampering more with it, I'll shoot some arrows through it to see how she feels in the hand, how the balance is etcetera.

by the way, this is a backed bow.

Joachim

Offline willie

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Re: elm bow tiller check
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2016, 05:34:55 pm »
Joachim

thought the strong point of elm was its backing qualities? How much, and of what, is it backed with?

willie

Offline joachimM

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Re: elm bow tiller check (repairing a broken bow?!)
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2016, 05:49:13 pm »
I backed it because the back was strained more than 1%. Not even elm can deal with that very well.
It's actually this same bow: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,56310.0.html, but now backed with sisal fibers.

Offline joachimM

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Re: elm bow tiller check (repairing a broken bow?!)
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2016, 05:55:32 pm »
Refreshing the memories: this is what the bow looked like two weeks ago.

It was a fast bow (spit a few light arrows 220 m far, at 10 gpp it got some 205 m far), but it broke after about 50 shots. The lower limb’s back clearly broke in tension, and the top 15 cm split off, while the rest of the back had split from the belly up to halfway the lower limb. The belly was relatively intact, however.
So I glued it back together. I reckoned it wouldn’t be much different from a laminated bow, except that the back would be severely violated in the lower half of one limb. Curiosity was my motivation, and regret of the broken bow helped too  :P
 

« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 06:12:15 pm by joachimM »

Offline joachimM

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Re: elm bow tiller check (repairing a broken bow?!)
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2016, 06:08:43 pm »
I used polyurethane wood glue to glue the bits together. This glue creeps pretty deeply into crevices in the wood. Clamped it really tightly. Realizing the old back wouldn’t be able to work in tension anymore I backed it. First, the broken area I covered with a good layer of raw flax, so as to move the neutral plane right up to the original back of the bow. On one side I also laid a layer of flax to avoid lateral movement of the tip.
Wrapped it really tightly, then unwrapped it and let it dry for a couple of days.

Next, I backed the entire bow with sisal fibers I retrieved from hay bale cordage. Sisal has a bit lower stiffness than bamboo (but more than most woods), but at least twice the stretching capacity. Applied it like you’d back with sinew, although it’s stiffer so the glue needs to be tackier too. Tension tests sisal indicate it can easily stretch 2.5% before breaking, and my own DIY-tests confirm this. On the bow I’m repairing it would never need to stretch more than 1.2%, so that back shouldn’t be at risk of breaking, unless a fatal belly hinge develops and the belly collapses at that point.

All sisal was applied in a single session, some 25 g in total plus 5 g of dry hide glue. Wrapped very tightly with bike inner tubing, heated with a heat gun to reliquefy the glue and ooze out the excess while letting the tubing pressing all fibers against each other and against the back in a homogenous glue mix. Removed the tubing half a day later and let the bow dry.
Monitored weight losses, which told me it was at equilibrium a week later.

Back to the tiller tree then! This was pretty exciting. Half expected it to blow to pieces, but it stayed together. All required tillering was essentially to reduce weight of the bow and get the fades bending some more. Just the old bow with the backing on drew 50# at 15”. My target was 45-50# at 24”, about the original draw weight before breaking (48#).
During tillering, I heat treated the belly three times over coals (put the embers from the fire stove in an old pan) to make the belly stronger for the much stronger than original bare back. This was rather superficial toasting (literally), so after scraping and scraping the belly to reduce draw weight I had to repeat it.
Followed Dances With Squirrels’ advice to make the bottom limb a bit stronger (now it makes sense to me why this should be done, thanks DWS). Tiller may not be perfect, but it shoots nicely (shot some 50 arrows this evening), and I don’t want to tamper with it too much right now. It now draws 48# at 24” at exactly the same physical weight as before breaking the unbacked bow (351 g), but after sanding and smoothing I guess it will drop a few more pounds, which his fine for me.

The sisal back is a bit rough. You can’t finish it as smoothly as flax or sinew, so I still need to think of a way to finish that in a more attractive way.
I'll try to to some flight shooting this weekend and do some chronographing too. Wanna see if it still shoots 220 m  ;)
Joachim

Offline paulsemp

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Re: elm bow tiller check (repairing a broken bow?!)
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2016, 06:20:19 pm »
Aside from the tiller I would be very careful hooking a bow on a tree like that for a picture. Full draw for five+ seconds can be real murder on a short bow

Offline joachimM

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Re: elm bow tiller check (repairing a broken bow?!)
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2016, 06:30:05 pm »
yes it's not my favourite part of the process. That's why the pics are so blurry: hurry to get it done with

Offline willie

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Re: elm bow tiller check (repairing a broken bow?!)
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2016, 07:21:25 pm »
Joachim

 Following along with your creative backing experiments, and your save of that elm bow is great . I hope you have some good reports after shooting, and get a chance to try some relatively lighter weight arrows.

willie