Author Topic: osage and sap wood  (Read 8139 times)

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Offline Spotted Dog

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osage and sap wood
« on: March 01, 2016, 10:19:55 am »
Since I wasn't there 300 years ago. Do you all truly think Native Americans took the
sap wood off of their bows ?
A three strand cord is not easily broken. Ecc.4:12

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2016, 10:28:30 am »
I don't know. I wasn't there either. :) Jawge
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Offline Stick Bender

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2016, 10:39:40 am »
I dont know , I  only know what I read there where like 500 plus tribes when Colubus hit the shores but I have read the Osage chased a ring no sap wood also Ishi chased rings some what & backed his bows no sap wood , some times I think people under estamate the techcnical & skill leval of American Indians  , I think if sap wood worked better then no sap wood they would have used it more just my thoughts.
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Offline Springbuck

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2016, 11:27:58 am »
It's been a while since I read his book, but I believe Al Herrin said the Cherokee chased a ring on black locust bows, or at least he said something like "all heartwood".

I often wonder if there were different techniques for working wood with stone tools we don't think about today.  For instance out here in Utah and Nevada there was an entire industry around taking short staves from suitable juniper trees, where some sites were visited over and over to remove staves from the same location at the tree healed, maybe 50 years later sometimes.  The branches were chiseled at each end of the stave, and the sides scored with stone chisels and choppers. Then left alone for weeks or months to dry, still attached to the tree.  As they dried, they would often crack loose, and pull away from the tree, and when the NA'S returned they would pry them out "pop" with a wooden lever.  That would never occur to me.

So, fire shaping?  Green wood shaping?  Lots of splitting, but little chopping?  I dunno...

  I once had the idea to cut an elm sapling, but leave the leaves and top intact for a few days to speed drying time.  Worked wonders.  In two days the leaves were crumbly, and log was way lighter than green wood.  I split the stave out restrained it, DIDN'T SEAL IT, except at the tips, and it dried without any checking, unlike almost any other stave ever has.  It still had a lot of drying to do to be ready to work, but to me that means it lost a lot of internal moisture up front. 

Lastly, inspired by the juniper technique above, I cut halfway through a standing ash sapling at the top and bottom of the stave I wanted, and cut away a strip of bark at the sides.  My idea was that dry wood is stiffer than green wood.  So I came back several days later (late summer btw) trimmed a few branches, bent the top of the tree over AWAY from the stave, and the stave split itself off as the rest of the tree flexed.

Probably lots we don't do anymore because we have steel tools.


Offline Steve Milbocker

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2016, 11:38:33 am »
I didn't remove the sapwood on this one. It's a good shooting bow however had there been enough heartwood I probably would have chased a ring. Then again had I been building with stone I may not have!

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Offline Jim Davis

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2016, 12:24:21 pm »
We're really only talking about Osage and black locust here. Lots of bows were made of hickory and sinew-backed cedar, and others.

I still think a good trick for stone-worked Osage bows would be to keep a supply of staves or logs buried in the humus in damp places such as a forest floor where the sapwood would rot away.

One thing I think was true:  It would be only in desperate straits that a paleo bowyer would work a "character" stave. That activity is the result of leisure time and a bounty of tools.
Jim Davis

Kentucky--formerly Maine

Offline DC

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2016, 12:58:37 pm »
  I once had the idea to cut an elm sapling, but leave the leaves and top intact for a few days to speed drying time.  Worked wonders.  In two days the leaves were crumbly, and log was way lighter than green wood.  I split the stave out restrained it, DIDN'T SEAL IT, except at the tips, and it dried without any checking, unlike almost any other stave ever has.  It still had a lot of drying to do to be ready to work, but to me that means it lost a lot of internal moisture up front. 

 I read somewhere that they do this with bamboo. If i remember I'm going to try it with Ocean Spray this summer.

Offline Springbuck

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2016, 01:18:15 pm »
 Cool, I want to see the results.  Anything to help speed drying without checking., and ocean spray is one of those difficult woods to dry, right?

Offline DC

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2016, 01:19:25 pm »
Right

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2016, 01:23:25 pm »
yes sometimes,, the museum bows show that,, I am sure if it was a sapling the sapwood was left on the have enough wood for a bow,,
probably just depended on the level of skill and knowledge,,, on a sinew bow it would not be an issue,,

Offline Spotted Dog

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2016, 01:50:00 pm »
I was thinking along the line of sapling or just smaller trees. Lots of good thoughts here.
A three strand cord is not easily broken. Ecc.4:12

riverrat

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2016, 07:21:03 pm »
from a book i have that has pictures and items were collected in the 1800's, yes they did leave sapwood on the back on SOME of the bows.listed in bows arrows and quivers of the American frontier.on one particular bow they left the bark on it as well.

Offline loefflerchuck

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2016, 08:45:25 pm »
Ishi did not chase a ring in his backed juniper and yew bows. Conifer wood does not require it. Specially when backed. If you don't chase a ring in osage and locust it will break. Probably a easy lesson learned. Half the old osage bows I have seen have a sapwood back. Chased ring of corse.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 11:52:32 am by loefflerchuck »

riverrat

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2016, 09:42:50 pm »
bull! i have a all osage sapwood bow.nothing but sapwood it aint broke and pulls 50 pounds. come on man quit reciting age old bull.try it then talk about it!ive made a number of locust {black and yellow} with sapwood in tact. never had a problem. heck one last 15 years of shooting almost every day. i then sinewed the back and gave it away to someone on here. last i knew it still shoots.ive made osage bows in the past with a few layers of sapwood { so have others on here} and guess what, yea they shot fine.you make nice bows, ive seen some. but you recite stuff you must of never tried.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 09:47:35 pm by riverrat »

Offline wizardgoat

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Re: osage and sap wood
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2016, 10:34:25 pm »
Chuck isn't referring to all sapwood bows here, or if it's possible. (We all know it is)
He's answering the posters  question did the originals have sapwood backs or were they all heartwood.