endless natural string?

[loon]

How would one take long fibers, such as hemp, and make a strong thread to make an endless loop? Was thinking of getting hemp fibers from somewhere, since it's hard to find high quality hemp thread or cord. Would braided or 3-ply reverse twisted thin thread be stronger?

Would prefer on this style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwp6UJOUfZY

Guess it would still be a lot less durable than a simple reverse twisted string. If so then maybe should just go with Primitive Tim's way of making a flemish twist string and then adding the double loops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePK2On2nk6A

Seems like this wouldn't require a jig, maybe just two nails partway hammered into a board or something. Guess the double loops could be reverse twisted or braided.

How much stronger and more durable, vs heavier would a plant fiber string be made by soaking in hoof glue, hide glue or sinew glue? Wondering if it'd be possible to make a plant fiber string that would last as long as a synthetic one.

[Jim Davis]

You have a book's worth of questions there. Best to get the answers from a book, such as the Traditional Bowyer's Bible. It has a chapter on string making, IIRC.

[richardzane]

just my opinion, as one who occasionally uses dogbane for a string
I wouldn't think the endless string would be an advantage at all.
the beauty of these kinds of strings is...if (actually WHEN) they break, you can actually repair them - twist more fiber in, and good to go.

this is the kind of knot I find good for a dogbane bowstring. the other end is the adjustable loop

[loon]

Thanks. Yeah, thinking about it I think endless for plant fiber is a bad idea. would probably only make sense with silk.

How heavy a bow do you use with those? How much do they last?

[richardzane]

 has done fine on a 50# bow , but active target practice means maybe 6 months.
I was showing off to a friend about my successfully strong dogbane string after 6 months and it popped!
well that was...embarressing
but while he was there, I simply unfreyed the end of the longest part and added more dogbane fibers and we were shooting
in a half hour. good to keep a supply of fiber in your hunting kit. we probably couldn't make that kind of repair with a commercial string.

[loon]

Nice. Though I wouldn't want a string to break on a reflexed, heavier bow, I don't think 

Just remembered flax strings were mentioned in Adam Karpowicz's Ottoman Bows book:

For flax strings one must make the loops not just padded with serving, but also at least as thick as the main section of the string. There is a number of Crimean-Tatar bows in the collection of the Dresden Museum, all with strings made of ramie, another cellulosic and brittle material. Based on the photographs from a catalog, I am quite sure the strings’ loops were made as so called “Molly Hogan eye loops”, known to work well for steel cables.

So... just a flemish twist? 

Found this. Seems good.



Video said it can have 80-90% of the "original" breaking strength, but with steel cable.

First, an endless string, but quite a bit longer is made for the bow. Then the ends are cut, crossed and twisted around themselves back towards the main section, while maintaining tension. Once the entire loops and the junctions with the string are well served with waxed silk, the string is put on the bow and the central section is served for the arrow pass. Original strings were served whole for durability, since the brittle threads can be easily damaged. I used such strings made of flax on bows up to 200lb weight with no trouble at all and the thickness of a served string never exceeded 4mm.

Some weird hybrid of an endless string and a flemish twist?.. ... don't know if reverse twisting the whole string would hurt compared to just leaving it untwisted and fully serving it. Or twisting AND serving it. Huh. Guess it demands experimentation.

The flax strings with separate loops are too brittle to be used for heavier bows, since flax will not tolerate knots at high tension.

Hmm... flax with rawhide loops? Dunno how durable that'd be. Or just with much thicker than 4mm loops. I don't see myself shooting 100lb bows much ever. Maybe a little, for strength training.

The serving is done as usual... Then additional short serving is made in several places along the string to prevent “ballooning” during release. It is said the increased surface area, when the string threads spread-out in flight as a parachute, causes more air resistance and therefore a slower arrow. Old strings have such binding as well.

Wonder which plant fibers are strongest. Agave, flax, nettle, dogbane, hemp...

Wonder how much durability would increase with fully served strings like that.

[Badger]

   I have seen dogbane that was stronger than flax, I have never seen hemp that was strong enough for my liking.

[Marc St Louis]

There was an article in PA a year or so ago on Milkweed and I have seen Milkweed grow up here to nearly 6' tall.  Last fall I decided to harvest some and process it following the article in PA.  Unfortunately I was too busy and ruined most of it.  I found that the article was spot on though and the fibers I was able to harvest were very long and quite strong, much stronger than the Dogbane I have been harvesting

[Springbuck]

Milkweed is the BOMB.  I have never made a bowstring out of it, but I have messed around with it a lot for other things.  It is very fine and silky, and so, so strong.  I made a fishing line with it once as a kid, and even caught fish. 

Double reverse twisted, using quality, long fibers is the way to go.  It's just the nature of the beast.  Plant fibers, even very long ones, just want to be bundled up together and work together.  To improve strings, I think the path lies in making multiple smaller threads into a big string.  If you are good, they can be sewing thread sized, but I'm not that good.

And, the flemish loops are probably the best method to avoid knots.

[loon]

Nice. I've been reading up into milkweed, from PA issues and this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-VlcFOc8kU . Hope I can find milkweed with good fibers around here in SoCal by this fall.

There is Woolly milkweed (Asclepias vestita), California milkweed (Asclepias californica), Narrow-leaved milkweed (Asclepias fascicularis), and Woollypod milkweed (Asclepias eriocarpa). None of these seem to grow beyond 3 feet. Only Showy milkweed (Asclepias speciosa) grows up to 5 feet, but its range seems to be to the north of where I live.

Guess I'd try growing my own milkweed if I had land. African milkweed gets to 6ft within a few months and can grow in SoCal... would have to be careful to not turn it into an invasive species. Don't know if it makes good fiber.

Just ordered some D-10 that I'll hopefully use with a ~80lb hickory flatbow, though... ... hope the bow doesn't blow up.

[richardzane]

where we can find it, milkweed is very short and stubby in our area. dogbane likes our abandoned fields and offers a good 3 ft. worth of stalk.
I've never had any of my strings break at the knot, but then I'm shooting 50# and below. I've done flemish string with dogbane but wasn't happy with how bulky the string gets
below the loop

[Badger]

  Stinging nettle is another good string material.

[loon]

May try agave or yucca
Should bust a squirrel and make a leather (rather than rawhide?) string. if tanned, maybe URINE tanned, it should be more weather resistant? If it wouldn't become too tough and brittle...
Should really use a blunt for that...

thanks for replies

Hmm... I think I've seen this plant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansevieria_trifasciata

[richardzane]

if you try squirrel skin you might need a couple squirrels.
One I attempted I stretched out round to use the most of the hide, but the belly is weak and you get LOTS of stretch there.
I wasn't even confident enough to put it on a 35# bow .

I've found what's called Flax that grows wild in New Zealand makes a very strong string. Maori use it for all kinds of things,bags,clothing,nets
I'm attempting to grow some plants from seed here, but it'll be a few years !

[Marc St Louis]

If anyone is interested in some seeds from the Milkweed we have here let me know because I saved some for planting, I'm going to setup a planter around my house.  They do seem to grow better in areas where there is a good quantity of water and with rich soil, it's easy to get 4 to 5 foot long fibers