Author Topic: Yucca backed osage molle  (Read 7234 times)

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Offline Mo_coon-catcher

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Re: Yucca backed osage molle
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2016, 02:46:45 pm »
It's the fibers in the leaves that I used. After scraping the leaves to get clean fibers I let them dry. Then I rehydrate so they are pliable again then lay them down like sinew fibers. This is something I'm going to have to play with more. I have a couple bows that need a backing and are a little too wonky to use a wood backing.

Kyle

Offline DC

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Re: Yucca backed osage molle
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2016, 03:31:05 pm »
Ah, I was confused by the fire starting thing. I had to re-read the whole post to figure that out. :-[ Thanks

Offline simson

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Re: Yucca backed osage molle
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2016, 04:13:48 pm »
The bow looks nice ... but,
I can't see a good reason to back a bow of that length and I don't believe the yucca fibers are enough strong for a backing.
Simon
Bavaria, Germany

Offline Mo_coon-catcher

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Re: Yucca backed osage molle
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2016, 07:08:47 pm »
I agree, Normally I wouldn't have worried about a backing on this bow. But it had some cracks on the back that kept wanting to open, even when filled with super glue. And I've been wanting to try yucca backing for a while. I want to do a good test for yucca as a backing. I've got some osage boards with some bad grain runout. Do you think it would be a good test on it as a backing if I make a bow from the osage board and back it with yucca fibers?

Kyle

Offline joachimM

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Re: Yucca backed osage molle
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2016, 07:53:35 am »
I can't see a good reason to back a bow of that length and I don't believe the yucca fibers are enough strong for a backing.

Don't underestimate those fibers. Plant fibers such as sisal (and I reckon Yucca should be very close to that) are stronger than most woods, certainly than osage. And they can stretch quite a bit further than wood. I'm rather convinced it can make an excellent backing.

Joachim

Offline simson

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Re: Yucca backed osage molle
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2016, 02:40:54 pm »
Make a piece of a string same diameter, one sinew one yucca and test out.
Or take a slat back it with sinew and another with yucca same thickness.

I think I can estimate what the result is ...

But back to drying cracks on a bow's back. If the wood is seasoned the cracks will be stable, best is fill with super glue. When the stave is still wet, it doesn't help - the crack will increase. Tell what a backing should do when having the fibers layed down in the same direction like the crack?
If layed perpenticular o.k., but then it doesn't work as a backing and you only add excessiv mass.
I'm still not convinced this is a good idea.
Simon
Bavaria, Germany

Offline joachimM

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Re: Yucca backed osage molle
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2016, 04:51:52 pm »
Make a piece of a string same diameter, one sinew one yucca and test out.
Or take a slat back it with sinew and another with yucca same thickness.

I think I can estimate what the result is ...

Simson
I wasn't comparing sinew as a backing to sisal/yucca, but other wood. If wood is strong enough as a backing (in a self bow), then sisal/yucca (which aren't the strongest plant fibers) surely does the trick too.

And as far as rupture under a load is concerned: there's lots of actual data on this stuff, performed under controlled conditions. Sinew is indeed exceptional in that it can stretch up to 15-30% before breaking (at high MC), but past 5% it has nonelastic deformation (tension set). So past this stress this extra tension as a bow backing is irrelevant. (see http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/sreply/519341/sinew#.Vq-3UIXhBD8)
As a backing on a self bow (no horn belly), sinew will hardly ever be asked to stretch more than 1.5 let alone 2%. It takes less force to stretch a strand of sinew for 2% (150 MPa) than to stretch a strand of sisal for 1%  (220MPa) (though it can safely take 2%). So even though you're right to state that the same diameter sinew string will break at a higher tension load (at c. 1200 MPa vs 800 Mpa in the best case for sisal), for a bow backing this crazy elongation of 15-30% is irrelevant.

So in the "take a slat" example the yucca (or at least sisal-backed) bow would be stronger. Less elastic (but elastic enough to back any self bow), but stronger.
You could also use pineapple fibers. They are very strong too (comparable to hemp and flax). 

For those interested, I compiled a database on all these properties for all kinds of woods and natural fibers (animal and plant based). Available upon request (and a work in permanent progress).

Offline willie

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Re: Yucca backed osage molle
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2016, 09:11:46 pm »
Kyle
if you think that the technical discussion of other backing fibers is beyond the intended scope of this thread, please let us know.

Joachim-
I would be interested is seeing some of your data base work on the fibers especially.  I will send a PM.
In these discussions of fiber elongation properties, there is seldom much said about how to determine how much of a particular fiber to use in a given application. If, for instance, a single sinew fiber can stretch 15% before taking set, then it stands to reason that 2 fibers would take the same load at 7.5%, and 4 fibers @ 3.8%, 8@1.9%, and 16@ .9% etc......

where does one optimize the buildup? It seems to me that the benefit of a fiber backing is that it can stretch more than the back could without it. so it need to be thick enough to take the load away from the wood back below, and lower the neutral plane to save the belly some compresssion. However there are diminishing returns to just adding more backing.....

your thoughts please....

willie
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 02:15:14 am by willie »

Offline Mo_coon-catcher

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Re: Yucca backed osage molle
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2016, 10:23:04 pm »
I'm completely fine with the technical discussion on the backing material going on. I find it interesting. For me, as long as I can make the wood bend and it doesn't go BANG. I'm happy. Even happier when it is done with minimal set and good speed.

Lyle