Author Topic: My 1st stave (vine maple), draw knife, and a debarking and other questions  (Read 8176 times)

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Offline calinb

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My family and I are planning to sell our house in Portland, Oregon soon and, as I've had to do a couple of times in the past 20 years, I must cull some vine maples that are threatening power and phone lines to our house. Until I recently found this forum and read Gordon's excellent build-along, I had no idea that they are not weeds!  :P

I still have another two similar trees to harvest but, as you can see below, the tree was pretty straight after felling and limbing. These photos are from  +/- 45 degree angles on the downhill side (future belly side). You can still barely see a small part of the notch I cut for the felling hinge to drop it in the downhill direction:



The log is almost 5" in diameter at the base and has what appeared to me to be 183" of useful length in it. So I cut it again into two logs, and split them into four staves (two bottom and two top staves). I expected to only use the uphill (more skyward facing) halves of the slightly bending (for a vine maple) logs. The interesting thing is the bottom "skyward" stave has some reflex after splitting, as I expected, but the higher staves are backwards. (After splitting the "top" log, the upper sky-facing half is straight and the half that was under compression is still bent a little). I doubled checked the grain of the end cuts, just in case I mis-labeled the top log, and sure enough--the top log is behaving backwards from the bottom log. Does this make any sense?

Given that this is my first bow, I decided to debark the straight bottom stave first and save the more desirable (I think) reflexed bottom stave for later. Here is the debarked straight bottom stave:


And here is the reflexed bottom stave (still to be debarked):


And a couple more photos of the debarked "practice" stave"



Really straight, isn't it? Maybe I cut down and debarked something other than a vine maple!  :-[

Speaking of debarking...I can't find much information about technique. It took me about three hours on this first stave and, though I've sped-up, I don't see how I can do it in much less than about two hours. Is that reasonable? The bark does pull-off by hand, when it happens to lift a little, but the strips are narrow and too short to make haste of them. The best technique I've found is to flip the handles around on my home made draw knife and scrape the sharp side of the blade along the bark to shave it off. I don't actually draw the knife edge, because I could easily cut past the bark that way. Actually, the non-beveled square edge of the blade works too, but it's not quite as fast at shaving bark as the sharp side drawn like a barber's razor across one's face. I've found that when I hit harder wood under the bark, the tool doesn't tend to want to shave it and I know I'm done (and also the surface doesn't turn back to a brown color, which indicates there's more bark to remove).

Am I doing this correctly and efficiently? There's not much info about technique out there. If it takes me two hours per stave, I've got about a day of work ahead of me for the three vine maples that has to be done before they dry out. Here's my tool (I plan to clean-up my grind and stone it better and, if necessary, heat treat with Kasenit before using it to help me cut out my bow along with a hatchet):


Should I go ahead and finish this bottom "practice" stave into a bow? What does everyone think about the viability of the "top" staves?

This is my first bow since I made a recurve in Jr. High shop class about 45 years ago and it's my first self-bow ever (and my first post here). I'd sure appreciate any and all advice and comments!

P.S. All the post verification questions are actually quite tough to complete correctly. Do these go away after a certain number of posts? It sure makes it tough to make a brief and quick post (unlike this first one of mine).

Offline Swampman

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Welcome to primitive archer.  I won't be much help in giving you any advice about vine maple as it doesn't grow in my area.  It looks like you did a nice job of debarking the first stave though.  You are in the right place to get answers. I am sure someone will be along soon to help you out.

riverrat

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ive never worked with vine maple, however on the stave with the deflex, could you steam it or dry heat bend it into a little reset? if you steamed it, that is if it works well with steaming, you could build a form to put it into till it dries .and then see how much reflex if any it keeps. or since it is split down the middle, shave it past the core. so its all straight grain on your belly. it cant have any run offs, now turn it around. its now your back. then tiller the crowned side as your belly. i dont know how strong vine maple is, you might have to back that split side, or maybe not. anyhow that later part is what id try if all else failed to get the deflex out of its entire length.Tony

Offline Springbuck

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  I remove bark in two stages, if it isn't a type that peels off.  I also do it green whenever possible, but that has to do with the species I use most.

  I don't know vine maple much at all, but on almost every other type of tree I use a sharp tool like a machete (used as a push knife) or drawknife.  With care and control, skim off the corky, rough, outer stuff.  Watch out you don't chop the tops off knots and bumps by avoiding them or just being really careful.  Then I can either peel up the inner stuff by hand, with a dull tool like a kitchen spoon, or if I have to, with a scraper.

Two hours seems like a LONG time to me for this process, but I have had some plum, hazel, and serviceberry that cured with the bark on take that long.  Ialso really like to steam or soak off bark, which works great once that outer bark is off.

Offline Stick Bender

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Welcome to PA I was almost in the same boat as you only made one bow 20 years ago & showed up here late last year & have made 2 successful bows since ,these guys here are great & encouraging for new people don't be afraid to ask any question you will probably get more answers than you want ,also find some body here that you like & PM them I guarantee you will get all the help you need !!
If you fear failure you will never Try !

Offline calinb

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It looks like you did a nice job of debarking the first stave though.  You are in the right place to get answers. I am sure someone will be along soon to help you out.
Thanks Swampman! Yeah--I'm sure I'll get some tips here.

ive never worked with vine maple, however on the stave with the deflex, could you steam it or dry heat bend it into a little reset?

Makes sense riverrat! Better to try some steam than have to burn it as firewood. My goal is to not cut into the crown, though. Vine maple seems to have grown in popularity with Boyers but they typically don't cut the crown, because it appears to be necessary for strength, but what do I know! Also, I plan to make one or two of these into projects with my 10-year old daughter. Right now, she has trouble drawing her 22 lb commercial plastic youth recurve bow to about 22 inches  it seems like my smaller diameter top staves would be good for a light bow for her and it doesn't have to be very strong. Actually, even her next bow after that would probably not be very strong. I don't know what dimensions to use for a youth selfbow though.

Two hours seems like a LONG time to me for this process, but I have had some plum, hazel, and serviceberry that cured with the bark on take that long.  Ialso really like to steam or soak off bark, which works great once that outer bark is off.

It's still green, but I think you are right Springbuck--at two hours, I'm still a real slow poke! It's still really green. When I get past the back, the wood is oozing water--seems like it's almost ready to drip off in fact! I started with a machete, but then converted the cheap Harbor Freight machete into the draw knife above..hah! With the handles flipped to shave bark like a long razor, I sometimes I do push the beveled edge to try to get under the bark to peel it, but it's scary!

Welcome to PA I was almost in the same boat as you only made one bow 20 years ago & showed up here late last year & have made 2 successful bows since ,these guys here are great & encouraging for new people don't be afraid to ask any question you will probably get more answers than you want ,also find some body here that you like & PM them I guarantee you will get all the help you need !!

Stick Bender, Thanks for the encouragement! Somewhere along the line, I lost my laminated recurve bow in a family move. I've always felt terrible about it. Making these bows will help me to feel better.

Offline DC

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Take this with a grain of salt as I'm not that familiar with Vine Maple(we have Douglas Maple on Vancouver Island). That looks awfully straight for Vine maple. Any time I've seen a maple that straight it's turned out to be a Big Leaf maple. I'm only saying this because you seemed to have a bit of doubt yourself. Are there any leaves laying on the ground?  It's an easy comparison, Big Leaf Maples are, well, BIG. Vine Maples have more lobes. Do a search on both. If indeed you have Vine Maple you have a major score. Covet it :) :) I use a dullish drawknife to remove bark. Not dull as in nicks and chunks out of it. Sharpen it nicely and then run the stone down the edge a few times. Just enough to round it off.

Offline Bryce

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I'd watch that stave. Growing on the side of a hill that's some good tension wood and it will dry into some reflex but anything over 4" becomes a hassle and you'll want to then clamp it down. As for the deflex piece. It's about as good as fire wood.
I would just toss it. It will make a a bow. But it will make a bow that takes a lot of set and will shoot like a dead dog, and it's really not worth the amount of time it takes to make a bow.
Gordon's build should get you where you need to go with this stave.
Clatskanie, Oregon

Offline calinb

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It's an easy comparison, Big Leaf Maples are, well, BIG. Vine Maples have more lobes. Do a search on both. If indeed you have Vine Maple you have a major score. Covet it :) :) I use a dullish drawknife to remove bark. Not dull as in nicks and chunks out of it. Sharpen it nicely and then run the stone down the edge a few times. Just enough to round it off.

Hmm... :-[ The leaves are gone but, just going from memory, could I have a mix of big leaf and vine? I know I have the big leaves but also remember seeing some of the smaller leaves with many lobes. Looking at the grove now, I'm thinking the larger, straight ones are big leaf (like the one I harvested) and the smaller twisty scrawny  ones are vine. Bummer!

I also have a bunch of laurel. Though I've not seen nearly as much information about Laurel bows, I have read somewhere that it works well. Should I try to find a good laurel stave? Funny--the popular online list of suitable bow woods lists bay/California laurel as .56 density and mountain laurel as .68 but this site says they are the same species:
http://www.nwplants.com/business/catalog/listscientificTindex.html

Maybe the difference is just where the laurels happen to be growing but .56 to .68 seems like a big difference. If that's the case, I'm sure mine are .56  :'(  but I guess that's still denser than big leaf maple.

I'll try using the dull side of my knife in draw to remove bark. Thanks, DC!

As for the deflex piece. It's about as good as fire wood.
<snip>
Gordon's build should get you where you need to go with this stave.

Thanks, Bryce. Yeah--I was thinking the deflex piece is firewood but maybe it's all firewood now (big leaf maple instead of VM). I guess it will work as a practice bow and youth bow.

I've carefully studied Gordon's build-along. Yes--it's a great piece of work and very helpful--once I find some actual VM!

Offline DC

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Are you still going to be there in the spring? The stumps will put out shoots then and you can check. The staves won't be dry til then anyway. At the very least you will have really well cared for firewood ??? ???

Offline calinb

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Re: My 1st stave (vine maple), draw knife, and a debarking and other questions
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2016, 05:00:54 pm »
Are you still going to be there in the spring? The stumps will put out shoots then and you can check. The staves won't be dry til then anyway. At the very least you will have really well cared for firewood ??? ???
I hope to be back in NE Washington by then or maybe looking for a new and permanent home in ID, but I could check in the spring or summer anyway. Great idea, DC! I'd planned to move the staves up to Washington for the future build. It's a long way to move firewood but yeah--I'll do it in case it's not firewood.

Offline wizardgoat

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Re: My 1st stave (vine maple), draw knife, and a debarking and other questions
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 02:48:18 am »
vine maple with have lime green twigs that always end with a "Y"
You can make nice sapling bows from vine maple, as small as 1.5" diam

Offline vinemaplebows

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Re: My 1st stave (vine maple), draw knife, and a debarking and other questions
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 02:11:04 pm »
I'd watch that stave. Growing on the side of a hill that's some good tension wood and it will dry into some reflex but anything over 4" becomes a hassle and you'll want to then clamp it down. As for the deflex piece. It's about as good as fire wood.
I would just toss it. It will make a a bow. But it will make a bow that takes a lot of set and will shoot like a dead dog, and it's really not worth the amount of time it takes to make a bow.
Gordon's build should get you where you need to go with this stave.


 I disagree with your deflex prejudice, that does not hold true everywhere. I will admit that it will be a bit slower with more mass, but a bow is a bow....especially when straight vine maploe is hard to find for some people.
Debating is an intellectual exchange of differing views...with no winners.

Offline wizardgoat

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Re: My 1st stave (vine maple), draw knife, and a debarking and other questions
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 07:02:14 pm »
I've made only one bow from the compression side.
It took a lot of set and I never finished it, but was probably my fault more than the wood.
The tension wood is the good stuff, no doubt about it. I wonder if the compression VM would benefit from a good heat treating, probably.

Offline Bryce

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Re: My 1st stave (vine maple), draw knife, and a debarking and other questions
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2016, 07:46:47 pm »
I'd watch that stave. Growing on the side of a hill that's some good tension wood and it will dry into some reflex but anything over 4" becomes a hassle and you'll want to then clamp it down. As for the deflex piece. It's about as good as fire wood.
I would just toss it. It will make a a bow. But it will make a bow that takes a lot of set and will shoot like a dead dog, and it's really not worth the amount of time it takes to make a bow.
Gordon's build should get you where you need to go with this stave.



 I disagree with your deflex prejudice, that does not hold true everywhere. I will admit that it will be a bit slower with more mass, but a bow is a bow....especially when straight vine maploe is hard to find for some people.


To each their own. I don't feel the need to waste time with it when I have better sticks.
   
Clatskanie, Oregon