the bow elbow

[jayman448]

So ive been hearing a lot lately about the elbow of the bow arm pointing totally bavk when you shoot with "proper form" i cant force my arm to do that. Am i just built odd or do others find this arm position bloody impossible?

[sleek]

I dont know the position you refere to, but honestly if it doeant feel natural to you, dont do it.

[jayman448]

If you hold your bow straight up, yout elbow should aparently point 90 degrees. Best i get is 45 or so. All srts of guies on line ate advocating this elbow position lately

[loon]

Not according to other forms. This is mostly the supposed western/olympic? form. I met Justin Ma (who translated the Gao Ying text), and asked him about this. You basically just don't try to rotate your arm at all, and have a natural, strong posture. Try to lean against a wall with your hand, and your arm extended, with your shoulder down such that it is effortless and stable. Arm not too bent but elbow not locked because that can lead to injury. So the bow elbow is in around a 45 degrees line for me as well, with no effort trying to twist it

Apparently the only reason western archers rotate their arm like that is to avoid archer's kiss (string slap on release), although a certain pdf claiming that olympic form was totally the best and most ergonomic said rotating it so the elbow points backwards (clockwise twist for right handed archer) is the way to do it and it increases strength somehow, with no explanation as to why.

Scott M. Rodell advocates the complete opposite of the western form: having the "cup" of the elbow point up and the elbow down, saying it also strengthens the joint. Thumb draw w/ arrow on thumb side (away from body) of the bow allows the bow to rotate outwards a bit so the risk of archer's kiss is reduced (in my experience as well as in a lot of other archers... most of us thumb drawing people don't even wear arm guards), so this can still work...

I've seen pictures and videos of archers shoot bows of 150+lb with all sorts of arm rotations.

Whether you get archer's kiss with that elbow position depends on your particular anatomy, whether you're "double jointed" etc.

I asked Mark, an English Warbow archer who's made records, about this exact same rotation issue:

http://markstretton.blogspot.com/2015/04/longbow-technique-why-does-your-bow-arm.html

The elbow and arm should be held in the natural alignment that is comfortable for you to push the bow as you draw. There must be a slight bend in your arm to allow for the string to clear and reduce string slap, but if your elbow is held either too high or too low, it will cause you injury. once you have found this natural line, you can then work on pushing the bow away from you with your bow hand, and drawing the string back with your other. If this is done correctly, then it will also reduce the possibility of injuring your back and shoulders.

My conclusion for now is that one can get used to any rotation of the arm with enough practice and stretching, but what's more important is that your shoulder is down, you're not hunched and everything is properly aligned. If you're not getting archer's kiss and your bow hand and both shoulders are aligned, just don't try to rotate the arm. I think you don't even necessarily have to have both shoulders and bow hand aligned? It's just easier to pull heavier weights with?

if the arm rotates a bit due to settling the bow shoulder, then that is fine. i think it's supposed to happen? But not the full 90 degrees

I've still been wondering about the perspective of someone with knowledge of anatomy.

[jayman448]

While on this topic of elbows, where should the draw elbow be? i know some advocate a high elbow for drawing ( even in TBB) saying it draws from the back better. whats all your opinions, thoughts, guesses, etc

[Pat B]

Both arms should line up with the arrow. The bow arm elbow should bend slightly bent and the drawing elbow should be on the same plane as the arrow point.

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

I know with my thumb ring draw that there's a straight line from the point of the arrow to my draw elbow.

[loon]

Draw elbow should be somewhat high for more use of the back. On release the elbow should move backwards, and drop a bit so that the follow through is in a straight line and not outwards, with both fingers and thumb draw as far as i know

This is close to how I shoot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWetqyG-9Bs

Just my opinion, not sure if in-line draw elbow would be "wrong" or not

High draw elbow allows more use of back muscles, and several successful archers have used it

[loon]

had more discussion about bow elbow, It's really hard to draw 85# without my bow arm collapsing although the draw arm is fine. Maybe it's because I haven't gotten used to rotating the arm correctly. My friend who draws warbows said the bottom one in this picture is a stronger posture, it could also be a natural consequence of rotating the bow shoulder properly and canting the bow, although some have said that the shoulder shouldn't be rotated, but the elbow, which doesn't make sense to me



Ishi didn't seem to have a rotated elbow or anything  Haven't really had many problems with 55-60#

the cup of the elbow seems pretty high here, too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b65feT-bmQs

[jayman448]

i know thats the general consensus on the bow elbow among target archers. i just can not physically draw with my elbow back like that. it dont matter if its a 25 lb bow or a 55 lb bow i cant make my bow elbow do that rotation

[loon]

i know thats the general consensus on the bow elbow among target archers. i just can not physically draw with my elbow back like that. it dont matter if its a 25 lb bow or a 55 lb bow i cant make my bow elbow do that rotation

I can do it with 55# or so but it's awkward and hard to do, definitely not natural or intuitive.
With 80#, it just seems to rotate back counter clockwise from all the pressure..
Maybe it is a personal anatomy thing.

This seems like a good way to get the elbow joint destroyed from string slap if shooting w/ fingers/left side of bow, but it is the exact opposite of what modern target archers do:

So regarding joints, I hope I understand your question. Now my bow elbow is facing slightly more toward the ground, the fold of the elbow facing up. This is because 1: that seems to be the standard way in many Chinese manual, Gao Ying like to comment on A LOT of things, but he didn't make a fuss about this, so I assume he used similar method. Many central Asian method are similar as well. And reason 2. I asked Mr Scott Rodell, a martial artist with over 30 years of teaching Chinese sword, he said he think the Chinese archery bow hand should be similar to the way swords are held: elbow facing down and the inner fold facing up. It allows the most strength forward and resilience coming back, and won't lock your elbow for a good sword trust. He then demonstrated on how more secured I am against his push if I do so. So that made a lot of sense to me. My understanding is, probably many Chinese archers of old wouldn't develop two different ways to stretch an arm forward for consistency's sake. So I stopped turning elbow out to the side, but turn it more toward the ground.

[Lumberman]

It feels very awkward to not have my bow elbow aligned up with the bow. Thankful for my dad being patient and teaching me when i was only 10, didn't even know that was "proper" form. Teach em early as they say

[jayman448]

I think it must be an anatomy thing. The only way i can turn my arm like that is if i hold my bow at like a 40 degree cant

[loon]

Yeah... I heard kyudo students who are double jointed and get string slap if the elbow cup faces to the side are recommended to make it face up. I think I read the same thing in The Way of Archery.

I think rotating the elbow like target archers do is probably awkward for everyone at first but they get used to it eventually as tendons stretch? How difficult it is probably varies on individuals.

It feels very awkward to not have my bow elbow aligned up with the bow. Thankful for my dad being patient and teaching me when i was only 10, didn't even know that was "proper" form. Teach em early as they say

Aligned up, so the elbow cup faces up? I have a bone that sticks a lot to the side and easily gets in the way of the string if I do that. 45 degrees is how i usually shoot

[Lumberman]

Haha oops, yeah poorly worded. No the cup is flat to the string, 90 degrees