Hand thrown spear better than the Atlatl?

[John32r]

Lol I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be abrasive but I think prehistory and history have been mythologized beyond belief. Some people seem to think that everyone around back then was running around looking like Arnold Schwarzenneger, throwing atlatl darts 100,000m to hit squirrels, doing roundhouse kicks to take down elephants and actually killing something with a promontory peg trap, and that the only reason people aren't doing that stuff nowadays is because they don't have time to practice, or didn't eat enough organic food when they were a child, or because their mom didn't breastfeed them, or whatever. And for some reason people seem very, very unwilling to rethink this idea.

[mullet]

I think you believe that. Everybody else has tried to tell you what they believe but you are too busy listening to yourself to read it.
Joe is right, trolling, I guess you had a lot of time to think with the last 30 day suspension.

[the barkman]

Well John it seems you have a hard on against the ATLATL- or at least folk's appreciation of it.  I like to think our ancestors had a very large , mixed bag of ways to solve every day survival problems.  Much like we do today, excepting the industrial processes we've inherited from our great, great grandparents.  The ATLATL has been a part of that mixed bag of problem solving tools a lot longer than guns, bows and arrows.  It's actually still used in some remote societies still extant on our planet.  What I am suggesting is that not all people used ATLATL for everything all the time- that for some applications (and I, being a reasonably intelligent modern human, admit to not knowing ALL of those applications as I am not a hunter gatherer--BUT I AM fascinated by ) it was actually the best available.  Thus it exists.  It exists because it was essential for some activity----for thousands of years.


    I've been making/playing with ATLATL for almost two decades, using absolutely anything I can get my hands on to make/experiment with them- modern materials included, and what I can tell you, empirically anyway, is that there is a wide range of purpose you can build ATLATL for.  Are you hunting Birds?  If I were to scare a large flock of birds (and I have every reason to believe flocks of game birds were larger in prehistory) I could reasonably assume I would hit one or more birds with the ten or so light-weight cane darts I launch at them during the ten or so minutes it takes them to hit the sky.  Am I hunting wooly mamoth with ten to 15 men from my tribe?   Well if we all have some pretty heavy duty darts and we stand real close we will bring down that beast, yes?  well.  It happened.    If I am a Mayan warrior tasked with killing armored Spanish invaders, along with ten thousand other ATLATL warriors with my ATLATL then yes I will.   You've used a lot of sweeping generalisations to discredit the ATLATL.  It's fine for you to think whatever you want, but if you honestly want to know the ATLATL, why not make a few (or a few hundred- it's not difficult) and see how they work----then you might appreciate better it's place in humankinds toolbox.  Today, in America, we still use the technology-----to throw balls for our dogs.       Also, whomever didn't know wether or notthe Aztecs had the ATLATL-----ATLATL is an AZTEC word.

[Josh B]

I think you believe that. Everybody else has tried to tell you what they believe but you are too busy listening to yourself to read it.
Joe is right, trolling, I guess you had a lot of time to think with the last 30 day suspension.

Oh yeah.....that's right.  I didn't recognize the username.  I should have remembered the MO though.  Thanks for the reminder Eddie.    Undoubtedly the troll will burn his bridge to PA beyond repair soon enough.  Then we can all forget him permanently.  Josh

[JackCrafty]

Someone reported this thread so I took a look...

Very interesting.  Not much in the way of hostility, so that's a bit of a downer.  But hey, I can pop the corn for something else.

As for the thrown spear being better than the atlatl dart, I'm sure the Schwarzenegger types in the past would agree with you.  And when the thrown spear became useless after being broken by the angry bear, a roundhouse kick to the jaw would work nicely to finish off.  And then sit down for a nice afternoon of new spear construction while feasting on an organic dinner of wild berries and bear meat.

Point is, the atlatl makes throwing easier.  Easy is good.  A thrown spear is about as accurate as a thrown rock.  And thrown rocks are nothing to sneeze at  (especially if you sneeze while a rock is flying toward you and you don't see it).  Anyways, there has to be a drastic improvement over thrown rocks for me to use it rather than a rock.  I think the atlatl looks pretty good to me. And the ammunition is lighter too.

[lebhuntfish]

I think you believe that. Everybody else has tried to tell you what they believe but you are too busy listening to yourself to read it.
Joe is right, trolling, I guess you had a lot of time to think with the last 30 day suspension.

Thanks you Eddie.
Patrick

[Zuma]

"Much to do about nothing"

"Lol I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be abrasive but I think prehistory and history have been mythologized beyond belief."

Zuma agrees

"Some people seem to think that everyone around back then was running around looking like Arnold Schwarzenneger, throwing atlatl darts 100,000m to hit squirrels, doing roundhouse kicks to take down elephants and actually killing something with a promontory peg trap, and that the only reason people aren't doing that stuff nowadays is because they don't have time to practice, or didn't eat enough organic food when they were a child, or because their mom didn't breastfeed them, or whatever."

Zuma disagrees

And for some reason people seem very, very unwilling to rethink this idea.
Zuma  agrees

Here is my opinion about the opinions here in this thread.
Not one, is backed up by more than an opinion.
LOL including mine. But I do have the data if you all are interested.
Does any one here know the real reason for the development
of the Bannerstone? Atatl weight?
Zuma

[M-P]

Hey Folks,  There is a lot of info on Atlatls on the web and if that's not enough you can check out the atlatl association.   The bottom line is that atlatls were used world wide and for thousands of years. and in some cultures until historic times. I would argue that someone found the atlatl/ dart useful and effective, or it would not have spread or lasted.  The central American city states armed their warriors with atlatls ( and really wicked obsidian-bladed clubs) and gave Conquistadors a workout. ( It turns out that steel armor works well against obsidian weapons.)
I think John32r is placing an awful lot of emphasis on the account of one observer, and the results of an amatuer competition and conveniently ignoring other accounts, experiences  and archeologic artifacts.  Atlatls ( for me at least) take a lot more practice than archery to obtain any accuracy, but I'm more accurate with them than rocks or thrown spears. 
As for banner stones,  their method of use is conjectoral, based on positioning in archeologic finds.  Modern experiments using them on atlatls has failed to find a proven advantage.   That doesn't mean they weren't used as atlatl weights, just means they have no proven advantage.  They do make your atlatl look cool though which is reason enough for me.  Ron

[Grasshopper Mouse]

Tom Mills is a past president of the World Atlatl Assoc. and I have the pleasure and honor to know him personally.
I have participated in 3D archery shoots for which Tom has received permission from the organizers to do the course with his atlatl. It is quite embarrassing to be a fairly good archer using a modern glass/wood longwow and to be outscored by a guy with a little board and some pointy darts. In fact, Tom has outscored quite a number of the participants using his atlatl and darts.
To postulate that the atlatl is not accurate simply shows me that someone hasn't practiced enough.

Guy

[John32r]

Tom Mills is a past president of the World Atlatl Assoc. and I have the pleasure and honor to know him personally.
I have participated in 3D archery shoots for which Tom has received permission from the organizers to do the course with his atlatl. It is quite embarrassing to be a fairly good archer using a modern glass/wood longwow and to be outscored by a guy with a little board and some pointy darts. In fact, Tom has outscored quite a number of the participants using his atlatl and darts.
To postulate that the atlatl is not accurate simply shows me that someone hasn't practiced enough.

Guy

Isn't Tom Mills Paleoaleo from Paleoplanet? By his own admission his maximum accurate throwing distance is 30 yards.

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I met the guy who holds the distance record (or at least he did hold it...don't know if he still does). A guy from Arizona. Something crazy like 800 feet or something. I forget exactly. I saw the equipment he used. Was a really long atlatl (betwen 24 and 30" in length) and a really short dart (about 4 1/2' to 5' long). The dart was carbon or aluminum with what appeared to be razor blades (not sharp) for fletching.

With my 7' arundo darts and 22" atlatl, I can throw just under 100 yards. My darts are built for close up accuracy (anywhere from a few feet to 30 yards or so) though, and not for distance.

I hate throwing distance...it always blows out my elbow!"

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/12715/distance-of-throw-for-atlatl#.VmJ3_FnnZJ9


These guys at the competitions are struggling to hit big targets at 20 yards. And making a lot of noise doing so. The darts are very slow and have low kinetic energy by the time they get to the target. I have never seen videos of Atlatl champs throwing at farther distances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYC5o7RUAnI


EDIT: Warning there is a lot of cussing in this video by frustrated throwers so please be warned if children are nearby.

[Grasshopper Mouse]

Yes, that is Tom.
Perhaps I need a clarification:
Is the atlatl a "failure" due to inaccuracy or because you can throw a spear a longer distance?
If it's inaccuracy then you're wrong. People like Tom Mills and Chris Henry easily show that it's capable of perfectly respectable accuracy within its intended performance envelope.
If because you can throw a spear further... so what? Throwing a spear further does not mean you have the accuracy to collect dinner.

The video you link to above is essentially as meaningless as if you gave a bunch of ordinary people access to race cars and expected them to turn in performances in line with professional race car drivers.

Guy

[John32r]

The video you link to above is essentially as meaningless as if you gave a bunch of ordinary people access to race cars and expected them to turn in performances in line with professional race car drivers.

Guy

This bit of video features some legends of the atlatl world at the European Spearthrowing Championship at Tauteval, France in August, 1998. Pictured are Lloyd Pine (originator of the ISAC), Bill Tate (founding member WAA), Suzie Brown (the Queen of Colorado), Jim Ray (the Old Mammoth Hunter), and the first World Champion (1996), Pascal Chauvaux. Also present is Cyrille Huc, who placed 4th in the World ISAC in 2009.

[bubby]

I know for a fact that at 15 yds my atlatl dart with just a sharpened point gets 6" of penetration on a three d target i think your way off base saying at 20-30 yds thay wont have enough energy to kill something, and i don't think you can throw a spear farther than an atlatl can travel, accuracy ; at 20 yds my son consistantly puts it in the vitals, just do a search for atlatl hunting kills i think you will be surprised

[bubby]

You know some people think they are the sharpest knife in the drawer and cherry pic info to make them look that way, if we just don't respond to this type of post and they don't get the attention they want they eventually will fade away

[Zuma]

As for banner stones,  their method of use is conjectoral, based on positioning in archeologic finds.  Modern experiments using them on atlatls has failed to find a proven advantage.   That doesn't mean they weren't used as atlatl weights, just means they have no proven advantage.  They do make your atlatl look cool though which is reason enough for me.  Ron

Thanks Ron
Zuma