Hand thrown spear better than the Atlatl?

[John32r]

Can anybody else here throw a heavy spear by hand more accurately than with an atlatl?

I was watching these videos of people throwing atlatls at world champs and other competitions, and such... Seemed really inaccurate. They could barely hit with consistency targets that they could never sneak up on if they were wild animals. Then I remembered this quote about Australian indigenous hunters and their woomeras:



 "skill varies, but “takes an exceptionally good man to kill or disable at more than 20 yards.”

Source:


http://web.grinnell.edu/anthropology/Atlatl%20Stuff%20for%20John/atlatlbibliography.htm

Yeah. I think I can throw a spear 20 yards easier than I can with the atlatl. The atlatl dars just have a mind of their own. They look like fricken swodfish due to the flexibility when you look at the darts on high speed camera footage.


Something to remember is that in North America among the Indians the atlal was largely abandoned while hand thrown and trusted spears stuck around up to the late 1800s. And how about those Inuit and their "throwing sticks"? I've seen more videos of spears being thrown without them than with them!

[bubby]

Well think what you want but a spear if you can throw it twenty yds isn't going to have the energy of the atlatl dart, even at ten yds, since they have been made legal to hunt with in some states kills have been made with atlatl

[Buffalogobbler]

With practice comes proficiency,
I've seen a you tube video of a deer being killed in PA with an atlatl.
Most spears were made for thrusting and not throwing, when throwing the atlatl gives more power and longer range but the thrower has to practice to be accurate, I've seen people hit a mammoth target in the kill zone at 35 yards.
All of that flexing in the shaft that you see is the same thing that archers deal with, archers paradox, it's just magnified because the atlatl dart is so long.

Kevin

[JoJoDapyro]

It also comes down to how you hunt. If you are a spot and stalk guy, you don't have much chance, if you are like me, and find a well used path and wait, you have a much better chance at getting an animal within 20 yards.

[Onebowonder]

Think about driving a car.  You likely do it EVERYDAY.  The whole process has become well practiced and automatic to you because your mind and body have learned, both consciously and subconsciously, to do the small details of doing it correctly each and every time.  You maintain the center of your lane, parallel park, drive in reverse between obstacles, and adjust your speed to road conditions without much effort or even thought really.

Ancient atlatl hunters had a similar relationship with the tools they used every single day.  It was just something they knew well and did almost automatically.

If we were able to offer one of these intrepid ancient hunters an F-150 4X4 and tell them to go from Cahokia to Tenochtitlan, they would likely have difficulties similar to the one's you and I would face with trying to use an atlatl effectively. 


OneBow

[Zuma]

Interesting.
I am not sure if Montezuma and the Aztecs had atatls
or not. Although they did use spears as did all warring
folks up until the first world war. Still used in a lot of jungle areas.
There are many pre Colombian atatls found throughout Central America.
The Alaskan natives used atatls well into historic times.
Masai warriors have killed full grown male lions with thrusting and
throwing spears in historic times. Although steel tipped.
I threw the javelin on the high school track team.
Had fun but wouldn't want to make a living with either weapon.
Zuma

[half eye]

John,
     Not trying to be a smart ass but I believe you are comparing two completely different types of weapons.....at least as employed by Native Americans. The Atlatl is a projecting weapon and a spear (not a javelin) is a thrusting weapon. While the one acts much like an arrow in projecting the lethal point from stand-off distance, the other is/was used to inflict large wounds; repeatedly, and at close range.
    An example would be the great lakes tribes who regularly hunted both Moose and Buffalo, and they were not horse cultures. They did so by being smart. One way was to run or heard these animals into deep snow fields where they foundered and the hunters could run up beside them on snowshoes and stab repeatedly, then run on to another. Another way was to drive them into water where hunters in canoes could paddle up to the swimming animal and again stab repeatedly. The system is very similar when buffalo were run over a "jump" and then finished off at the bottom.  The spear is the enduring weapon while the atlatl was replaced by the bow.....even the Inues' harpoons (and throwing stcks) are still like spears more than atlatl's and used because you cant get within arms length of whales or walrus etc. and so the harpoon head requires a very short throw distance for the harpoon head to be delivered, but the killing lance is hand held.
    Survival and subsistence hunting has nothing in common whith white guys sport hunting. One requires the dead animal without injury to the hunter, we do it for sport and invent reasoning and rational for "how to do it".

Sorry for "droning on" just wished to point out that the atlatl, spear, javelin, and lance are all different weapons so I do not believe one can be compared to the other without being taken in context of their intended purpose.
rich

[Pappy]

Very well stated rich  loved that. Also when you do something ,what ever it may be every day to survive you can get pretty good at it. Unlike us get out once a week for fun.
 Pappy

[John32r]

Half Eye what you are suggesting is that Native Americans were living fundamentally at the level of Neanderthals, hunting with handheld thrusting spears using natural traps such as the one at Tabun, Israel, where Neanderthals drove gazelle and speared them 105,000 years ago.

This "bread and butter" of hunting sustencence was never replaced or substituted for with any cultural advancements, be they the atlatl, the bow and arrow, or the boleadoras (which totally supplanted the bow in Patagonia in 1860).  Any cultural or technological differences between Neanderthals/Denisovans and Indians and North Eurasian hunters are therefore totally superficial.

[John32r]

Very well stated rich  loved that. Also when you do something ,what ever it may be every day to survive you can get pretty good at it. Unlike us get out once a week for fun.
 Pappy

What about the aboriginal Australians? Their maximum hunting range with the atlatl/woomera was at best 20 yards.

[edgemaster]

Atlatl is objectively better. It's more accurate, has more stopping power behind it, and moves faster. But if spearchucking is your thing, that's fine too.

[Pappy]

John that is about my limit with my selfbow, so I would say that's pretty good. Most good hunters should be able to get with in 20 yards of a critter that want to kill. 
 Pappy

[Josh B]

Well said Rich.  Your post got me to thinking about a pretty common hunting practice that is used in my area.  A large group of hunters splits into 2 groups, walkers and blockers.  The blockers set up in ambush around a clearing or natural funnel such as a gully.  The walkers go to the opposite end of the woods that are being hunted and spread out in a line and start walking through the patch of woods.  They push the deer ahead of them towards the blockers in the kill zone.  In essence, it's the same tried and true method of hunting that has been employed for millennia.  The weapons have changed of course.  They're using high powered rifles instead of spears, but the basic idea has not.  This same tactic is used for pheasant in the grasslands and fields using dogs and shotgun.  Man has hunted this way for along time even if the weapons have advanced the tactics have not.   Just a somewhat related observation that popped into my head while reading through this.  Josh

[John32r]

It's more accurate,

Evidence, please.

has more stopping power behind it

No it does not.

, and moves faster.

Relevance?

[John32r]

Interesting.
I am not sure if Montezuma and the Aztecs had atatls
or not. Although they did use spears as did all warring
folks up until the first world war. Still used in a lot of jungle areas.
There are many pre Colombian atatls found throughout Central America.
The Alaskan natives used atatls well into historic times.
Masai warriors have killed full grown male lions with thrusting and
throwing spears in historic times. Although steel tipped.
I threw the javelin on the high school track team.
Had fun but wouldn't want to make a living with either weapon.
Zuma

I guarantee you a high school javelin thrower can throw a heavier javelin than an atlatl dart for farther distance and with more accuracy than an atlatlist. The maximum hunting range for the atlatl appears to be 20-30 yards, ancient Romans threw spears for twice that distance. At that range an atlatl dart wouldn't even have the kinetic energy to break skin. The atlatl is essentially a scam.