Author Topic: Native American Projectile Evolution  (Read 9610 times)

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Offline Zuma

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Native American Projectile Evolution
« on: November 07, 2015, 04:16:37 pm »
This has nothing to do with modern abo stuff.
What I would like to discuss is the way Native American
 projectile evolution occurred.
Of course most of this will be predicated on speculation.
The actual projectiles themselves give a good amount of clue.
If we start with Clovis and work through Late Paleo-Archaic and the Woodland periods by point style. Could we visualize how and why different types came about, how they were hafted and used.

I like to call it the Bic Lighter Syndrome.
Explanation---back in the day cigarette lighters  were made of silver and other metals. They were very large and artistically made with various scenes, busts and historic motifs. Technical and high quality to be used over and over.

They eventually became smaller, using different fuels and cheaper materials.
Soon they  became personal items carried in purses and pockets.
Sill durable and somewhat treasured.
 And then finally the cheap and dirty throw away plastic Bic.
Well, I look at the Clovis as the Coffee table lighter and the Late Woodland triangle as the Bic.
Any thoughts?
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

riverrat

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2015, 04:37:42 pm »
yep same brain wave here. look, heres how i think on it. a clovis point wasnt only a spear point, it was a knife point, it was a tool that was very well made, it was a one tool does all tool. im assuming they had a whole culture around that point design because of what it meant to them.so i imagine they took great pains to make sure it was a very well made tool. however, i bet one day some hunter noticed that hey even the flakes i make making this difficult point cut, hmmm wonder how well it would work....then tried it!. fast forward to woodland times and the bow and arrows, the object of the arrow was to not only puncture the animal they were aiming at. but to cause a wide area or hole to bleed out that animal. heck any piece of stone ,bone, wood , thats sharp can do that. so hence something easy to fasion and still works. i like basic triangles myself though i do adore the fine craftmanship of a clovis point.but would i make a clovis to hunt with? no. why? way to much work compared to basic triangular points.heck ive seen some nice sized clovis points. i could make a heck of a point just from what i seen in flutes that were removed in a few touch ups.so why work so hard on  it? just my thoughts. Tony

Offline Outbackbob48

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2015, 05:15:39 pm »
Don, here's my .02 The size of the game changed  from Mastidons to Deer and the weapons changed from spears and atl-atl to bowand arrow. Big Clovis points to teeny Triangle bird points in a few thousand yrs. Bob

Offline Dalton Knapper

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2015, 05:20:17 pm »
Don't overlook the significance of the atlatl. It delivered a projectile to the target with more than a hundred foot pounds of energy that a hand thrown spear could deliver. The point didn't have to be made as well and since you could retrieve your shaft in a atlatl and dart setup, you could have barbs on the point since all you had to do is load up another foreshaft. Than and the game was no longer megafauna in later days. The delivery method in other words had a huge impact (no pun intended) on the was the weapon and point was designed to stay in place from the archaic on whereas Paleo points were designed to stab, be removed and stab again. Clovis and Paleo points didn't have shoulders for a reason - you could thrust and pull the point out and thrust again. Barbed points do not pull out easily - you just shoot the game and reload your shaft with another foreshaft and shoot again with the assistance of an atlatl.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 08:35:46 pm by Dalton Knapper »

Offline Zuma

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2015, 07:42:50 pm »
Very good replies.
If I can find a good illustration of what convention
says are the major point types I will.
But I think if we use just  the basics we can try to
match them to time, weather, creatures, geographic
domain,workmanship and the like.
Suggestion in order---
Clovis, other Paleo, corner notched, early stemmed, bifurcate, stemmed
side notched and triangle.

I might start by saying I think the Clovis hinged flute was created to help kill elephants and see where it goes.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline Dalton Knapper

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2015, 10:15:34 pm »
I'll simplify that. All Paleo points were made to penetrate, insert and when possible extract to insert again. Of course the best situation was to be able to toss the spear and kill, but not all prey in the Paleo time was something that could be killed with a single throw. Also keep in mind that groups hunted, and it wasn't necessairly one person one target. When buffalo could be run off a bluff or deer could be ran down a hollow and then entangled in a hoop line, that was the best. Later the atlatl increased the distance prey could be killed and the points changed. I am sounding like a broken record, but there was a reason Paleo points didn't have barbs and Archaic to Woodland points did...then there was the bow and the Mississippian.

Offline Zuma

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2015, 10:46:20 am »

Dalton
I don't think a broken record at all. Imo the smallest details are
very telling in the overall. For instance grinding and the evolution
of incurvated and excurvated traits as well as serrations.
Interesting is how almost all of these traits disappear in the Late Woodland.
I am glad you see you may be in agreement with me that Clovis at
least had not developed the atatl and used their spears for thrusting
or throwing. 
If you all would try to think about Clovis migration direction I would
suggest this-- (north)Western Clovis seem to be more square based, straight
sided and shorter flutes. Imo I see this as the beginning of Clovis technology.
As you go south and east the sides become more incurvated the bases more
convex and the flutes longer. Is this evolution/morphology??
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline Outbackbob48

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2015, 06:24:21 pm »
Don, I have been told that the glaciers receded from South to North and from East to West, and I am assuming the first people followed the glaciers or migrated both directions. I also believe we have way more clovis sites in the east than in the west.  JUst a little something that I was thinking about.  I do agree with ya on the no barb thrusting pull and return stuff, Not really sure when the atl-atl came into play but after spears Just Thinkin.  :o  Bob
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 06:27:43 pm by Outbackbob48 »

Offline Zuma

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2015, 09:19:12 pm »
Bob, Good thoughts.
 Just my take based on archaeology and personal travel.
First there are not really any northern Clovis elephant kill sites.
A few speculative ones. Most are in what is more the southern half of
N America. Clovis, NM , Naco southern AZ,  Lehner AZ, Murray southern AZ,
Colby north central WY and the Texas high plains, all mammoth kills.
Also one from Mexico fairly recent, a mastodon ancestor.
One mastodon site in MO.   Mastodons are said to be more woodland.
The edge of the ice sheet should have been around the Canadian border at this time??

Having been stationed at Clovis AB and traveling all over that territory as well as
 Texas, Arizona NV, CA, UT, WY, ND, NE, KS  recently. The area is not really
the most hospitable. Compared to the east. Much easier to make a living east
 of the Big Muddy.
It's a shame that most do not recognize the C 14 dates anymore except when
someone wants to claim Pre Clovis. They have really muddied the waters.
Along with the Black Mat folks. lol
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline mullet

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 08:49:33 am »
And, don't forget Florida. Quite a few Clovis sites in North Florida and 10-15 miles out into the Gulf of Mexico.
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline Zuma

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 09:16:40 am »
And, don't forget Florida. Quite a few Clovis sites in North Florida and 10-15 miles out into the Gulf of Mexico.
Good point Eddie. I sure would perfer Tampa Bay to the Great Basin.
I had the great fortune to view Ben Waller's Paleo point collection
shortly before he past. Those points as I remember were so evolved
( well, works of beauty art and technology)
Not at all like the ones I see from out in the north west.
Excluding the ones in controversial Clovis cashes. lol
What is your take on the FL Paleo points? I'm sure you have seen quite a few.
Thanks
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline Outbackbob48

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 11:18:35 am »
Don, Our local archaeological club meets on Thurs(12) and we are having 2 of our members speak who just returned from the reopened and expanded  Sugarloaf site, Dr. Gramly thinks that this will be the biggest clovis site in the US. This site is located on the Connecticut River in Deerfield , Mass. This site it has just been reopened after many yrs of set backs for various reasons, Dr. Gramly came to our local club 2 yrs ago with a perfectly intact lg clovis point that he believes came from manufacturing site the base and hafting area hadn't been ground yet. On a different note a yr. ago Dr. Gramly came to our local meeting with a bunch of Mastodon bones that had definitely been butchered with stone tools by the the large smooth cuts on the bones. I believe this Mastodon was either 66 or 67  th one found in NY. Museums were not even interested in this one because it had been dug thru with a ditch machine, I guess museums like ones that are relatively simpler to re assemble. I have been very fortunate to have Dr. Gramly come to our local club and speak and actually bring the real artifacts with him. I will keep ya updated on some things from the next meeting. Oh a little side note on the unused clovis point, the material supposedly came from about 100 miles south of manufacture site and was said to be Normanskill from the Hudson Valley area. Bob

Offline Zuma

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2015, 12:12:30 pm »
That's real cool 8)
Getting to hold and study Paleo material is quite special.
I could do it day and night if I had the chance.
I guess we should get some photos up to see
possible similarities or differences in Paleo points
from different sites or maybe just links.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

AncientTech

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2015, 12:34:33 pm »
To put things into perspective, there was a tremendous shift with the advent of the archaic era.

Basically, the advent of the archaic era forced people to become super duper specialists, wherever they were at.  The had to learn to extract everything they needed to survive, from their immediate surroundings.  As a result, they had to develop many sophisticated processes needed in order to live, in one area.  For example, they developed stone mortars, and other items, that enabled them to eke out an existence, in various regions. 

What makes it more complex is that in some areas - such as the Great Basin - food was highly seasonal, with up to twelve seasons in a year.  So, people had to learn to cycle through food sources, every so many weeks, simply to keep going.  And, all of this took specialized knowledge that only was applicable certain areas.

Until that time, quite a few paleo points were known far and wide, or were known within certain probable migratory ranges.  But, with the specialization of the archaic came a specialization of point types.  One also sees signs of settled life, with the appearance of settlements, during the archaic era.   

The shift from paleo types to archaic types may have reflected a shift from one lifestyle to another, and a shift in lithic materials selected.  In other words, people who lived settled lives, may have been more prone to employing stone found in their respective region.  Also, the shifts could reflect differences in hafting strategies.   

Afterwards, the development of the bow and arrow would have involved further specialization of point types, that reflected different types of hafting, etc.

What is not so clear is the status of knives, during these eras, and transitions of eras.  Shafer offers the opinion that the Lerma was never a projectile point, but rather a knife.  The Hasket tradition, to the far north, may have been a knife tradition.  And, there could have been knife traditions in between the Lerma of Mexico, and the Haskett of the Great Basin.

Probably the best way to look at this is to place projectile point typologies side by side, with dates in sequence, and then see where there was common ancestry, and the look at what spun off of the common ancestry, with the advent of the archaic era.  Beyond that, one could track the development of lithic styles, with the retreat of the Northern Ice Shield, to see at what point in time - and where - did subsequent northern variants appear.

More banned knowledge from the chronically banned flintknapper, LOL.

Ancient Tech         




Offline Zuma

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Re: Native American Projectile Evolution
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2015, 04:29:15 pm »
Ben
Could you do me a favor and see if you can find Tony Bakers Clovis C14
timeline paper. It's a great resource and it would show us where to look
up sites chronologically. It has every site location and dates available to him.
I know I found it a couple years ago. It may be in a PDF file.
I can't open them. Or we could wing it. But I would like very much to stay
with Paleo before moving on to the Archaic. For clarity. Oh BTW Galt is know
as a long time Clovis settlement. Long time. lol
Thanks Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.