Author Topic: Condors and lead  (Read 22869 times)

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Offline DC

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2015, 11:49:09 pm »
That's an amazing picture Bubby :) :) :) :)

Offline stickbender

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2015, 01:33:09 am »

     Very informative, J.W. .  As for the gut pile, how would the lead get there, unless the animal, in question was gut shot?  I would think the gut pile would be fine, for the scavengers.  The lungs, yeah, bury those, but unless the animal was gut shot, I don't see how lead would be there.  As for ducks eating lead, the only ones, that would be likely to eat, lead, would be the diving ducks, and not the non diving, like Mallard, teal, canvas back, golden eye, etc..  They banned the helium balloons, near the oceans, or tried to ban them, as they claimed the sea turtles, were eating them, thinking they were jelly fish.  They only found "ONE" that had a piece of balloon in it's stomach.  The majority, of turtle deaths, other than nets, were plastic ice bags, that idiots, toss over board, or do not put in a container, so that they don't blow out, and dispose of them later.  I like lead.  Kinda hard to shoot solid copper, out of a muzzle loader, and the wear on rifles, is greater, as there is no give, as in a lead core, bullet.  If they use a plastic sleeve, like the accelerator bullet Winchester brought out a long time ago, where, you could put a sleeve, on a .25 cal. and shoot it in a.30 caliber rifle, and have go at a much greater speed. OK.  But I don't know if that is what the solid bullets are like or not.  Personally, I really don't want to shoot solid copper out of my rifle.  I would shoot the solid copper slug out of my shotgun, as it is encased in a plastic sleeve.  I am doing Chelation now.  The main ingredient, is mag sulfate, it is mixed with EDTA, and vitamin C.  Cleans, out toxins, cleans out the arteries, and detoxifies in general.  I know I have eaten a bit more than a few pieces of #7 and 8 bird shot. Hopefully, this I.V. therapy, will get the lead out also, as well as all the other toxins, I was exposed to from the Army, and the Fire Dept.  But I wonder, how many Condors died from lead poisoning, by being shot.  could the bullet in the crop, have been a result of some idiot shooting at it, as it soared above?  Anyway, it is a subject that can be argued, back and forth, with facts,on both sides, and adlib, by either side, with an agenda.  J.W. brings up good points, about the buzzards eating anything hard, in a carcass, and the Condor, is nothing but a big buzzard, with gay colors! Jack Crafty, brings up good points also.  Money is a big factor in grants, for a study, of anything.  There was a guy who used to come on Johnny Carson, and he would show some of the wasteful Government grants.  One couple got a couple hundred grand, for an art grant.  The flew a plane, over the waters, of some South American, beach, and tossed out rolls of colored paper strips, and filmed it, and called it art.  The best one though, was a guy who got something, like 150 thousand dollars, to study social life, in a Peruvian uh.....house of kitties. So, I think it all comes down, to how you personally are affected, and your connections to one side or the other.  As for re introducing a almost extinct species, I don't think they put enough thought into it, as to how well that animal is going to fare, in a much reduced area, that it once thrived in, as for food, and shelter, etc.  The idiots that re introduced the wolves here, in Montana, and Wyoming, didn't think of the impact on the Moose, Elk, and deer populations.  Especially, after the wolf population bred far past their biggest estimate of how many wolves there would be in a few years, and the wolves they introduced were Canadian, and some were hybrids.  When you get a 250lb. wolf, that just isn't your normal wolf!  Yeah, the Condor, deserves to at least get a chance to survive in a much changed world, but I just don't see there being that much lead available to be eaten by them, before something else gets the "lost" game.  Just my opinion. 
                                     Wayne

                             

Offline caveman2533

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2015, 09:04:12 am »
Wayne,
I believe ducks pick up lead even if they are not divers because they do need grit in the gizzard to crush the seeds they are eating.They are picking it up as small gravel.

 JW thanks for the informative  post.

Offline JoJoDapyro

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2015, 10:07:49 am »
Zuma, I am surprised at the level of contempt you have for Science. How hard is it to switch from lead to another type of shot? Or sinker? As soon as I was made aware of the potential impact of lead in my fishing gear (Thanks JW) I switched. About the gut pile. Do the bullets you shoot not fragment on impact? How much of your bullet do you find in your animals when you shoot them? Do gut piles not include lung, liver, heart? Do you go over your gut pile with a metal detector to make sure that it is fragment free? Instead of denying things why not look into them?
If you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got.
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Offline JoJoDapyro

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2015, 10:13:08 am »

     Very informative, J.W. .  As for the gut pile, how would the lead get there, unless the animal, in question was gut shot?  I would think the gut pile would be fine, for the scavengers.  The lungs, yeah, bury those, but unless the animal was gut shot, I don't see how lead would be there.  As for ducks eating lead, the only ones, that would be likely to eat, lead, would be the diving ducks, and not the non diving, like Mallard, teal, canvas back, golden eye, etc..  They banned the helium balloons, near the oceans, or tried to ban them, as they claimed the sea turtles, were eating them, thinking they were jelly fish.  They only found "ONE" that had a piece of balloon in it's stomach.  The majority, of turtle deaths, other than nets, were plastic ice bags, that idiots, toss over board, or do not put in a container, so that they don't blow out, and dispose of them later.  I like lead.  Kinda hard to shoot solid copper, out of a muzzle loader, and the wear on rifles, is greater, as there is no give, as in a lead core, bullet.  If they use a plastic sleeve, like the accelerator bullet Winchester brought out a long time ago, where, you could put a sleeve, on a .25 cal. and shoot it in a.30 caliber rifle, and have go at a much greater speed. OK.  But I don't know if that is what the solid bullets are like or not.  Personally, I really don't want to shoot solid copper out of my rifle.  I would shoot the solid copper slug out of my shotgun, as it is encased in a plastic sleeve.  I am doing Chelation now.  The main ingredient, is mag sulfate, it is mixed with EDTA, and vitamin C.  Cleans, out toxins, cleans out the arteries, and detoxifies in general.  I know I have eaten a bit more than a few pieces of #7 and 8 bird shot. Hopefully, this I.V. therapy, will get the lead out also, as well as all the other toxins, I was exposed to from the Army, and the Fire Dept.  But I wonder, how many Condors died from lead poisoning, by being shot.  could the bullet in the crop, have been a result of some idiot shooting at it, as it soared above?  Anyway, it is a subject that can be argued, back and forth, with facts,on both sides, and adlib, by either side, with an agenda.  J.W. brings up good points, about the buzzards eating anything hard, in a carcass, and the Condor, is nothing but a big buzzard, with gay colors! Jack Crafty, brings up good points also.  Money is a big factor in grants, for a study, of anything.  There was a guy who used to come on Johnny Carson, and he would show some of the wasteful Government grants.  One couple got a couple hundred grand, for an art grant.  The flew a plane, over the waters, of some South American, beach, and tossed out rolls of colored paper strips, and filmed it, and called it art.  The best one though, was a guy who got something, like 150 thousand dollars, to study social life, in a Peruvian uh.....house of kitties. So, I think it all comes down, to how you personally are affected, and your connections to one side or the other.  As for re introducing a almost extinct species, I don't think they put enough thought into it, as to how well that animal is going to fare, in a much reduced area, that it once thrived in, as for food, and shelter, etc.  The idiots that re introduced the wolves here, in Montana, and Wyoming, didn't think of the impact on the Moose, Elk, and deer populations.  Especially, after the wolf population bred far past their biggest estimate of how many wolves there would be in a few years, and the wolves they introduced were Canadian, and some were hybrids.  When you get a 250lb. wolf, that just isn't your normal wolf!  Yeah, the Condor, deserves to at least get a chance to survive in a much changed world, but I just don't see there being that much lead available to be eaten by them, before something else gets the "lost" game.  Just my opinion. 
                                     Wayne

                           

Deer were once all but wiped out. Bison, elk, Pheasants, Grouse, Ducks, Geese. Why don't you rant about how useless it was to reintroduce them? Just because it doesn't help you directly doesn't mean it doesn't really help you. Heavy metals don't just go away. Kinda like DDT. Look up the effects of it. It is so persistent that it still shows up as the most detected pesticide in children today, some 40 years after it was banned.
If you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got.
27 inch draw, right handed. Bow building and Knapping.

Offline Ed Brooks

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2015, 10:22:01 am »
I seen a show about this yrs ago. a biologist had a condor that was dead. they showed in Xray the lead deposited in its body from "eating deer shot with buck shot". This bird died of lead poisoning alright but it wasn't from eating it. it had pellets not buck shot all over its body (it was shot).  I was just a kid and remember how stupid this guy must have been to get on tv and tell us this bird ate the lead, or he knew how stupid most ppl are when it comes to this stuff. Ed
It's in my blood...

Centralia WA,

Offline Zuma

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2015, 11:10:05 am »
The topic is about these birds not lead poisoning in general.
Eddie asked us to stay on it. thanks Zuma
 
Bare in mind this study was done in 2008 so if they are still complaining
about the mortality and poisoning it must be because they continue to
subject the poor birds to that fate. Or the documentry was way old?
Please tell me your take on it.

I included the conclusion. I read the paper in it's intireity


Effectiveness of Action to Reduce Exposure of Free-Ranging ...

to Effectiveness of Action to Reduce Exposure of Free-Ranging ...

Dec 24, 2008 ... Condors were routinely recaptured and treated to reduce their lead levels as ... We simulated the effect of ending the existing lead exposure ...

 
 
We used a previously published population model [8] to assess likely long-term trends in the numbers of condors in the absence of further releases and without chelation and other treatment of birds with elevated blood lead concentrations. According to this model, the condor population would tend to decline under present conditions unless natural adult mortality was at the lower end of the likely range or reproduction was at the “maximum conceivable” level (Table 5). Since the assumptions of the “maximum conceivable” scenario are extremely unlikely to apply to any real population of condors, this indicates that the Grand Canyon condor population is unlikely to be self-sustaining at current levels of exposure to lead.
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.


Offline stickbender

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2015, 02:52:45 pm »

     Very informative, J.W. .  As for the gut pile, how would the lead get there, unless the animal, in question was gut shot?  I would think the gut pile would be fine, for the scavengers.  The lungs, yeah, bury those, but unless the animal was gut shot, I don't see how lead would be there.  As for ducks eating lead, the only ones, that would be likely to eat, lead, would be the diving ducks, and not the non diving, like Mallard, teal, canvas back, golden eye, etc..  They banned the helium balloons, near the oceans, or tried to ban them, as they claimed the sea turtles, were eating them, thinking they were jelly fish.  They only found "ONE" that had a piece of balloon in it's stomach.  The majority, of turtle deaths, other than nets, were plastic ice bags, that idiots, toss over board, or do not put in a container, so that they don't blow out, and dispose of them later.  I like lead.  Kinda hard to shoot solid copper, out of a muzzle loader, and the wear on rifles, is greater, as there is no give, as in a lead core, bullet.  If they use a plastic sleeve, like the accelerator bullet Winchester brought out a long time ago, where, you could put a sleeve, on a .25 cal. and shoot it in a.30 caliber rifle, and have go at a much greater speed. OK.  But I don't know if that is what the solid bullets are like or not.  Personally, I really don't want to shoot solid copper out of my rifle.  I would shoot the solid copper slug out of my shotgun, as it is encased in a plastic sleeve.  I am doing Chelation now.  The main ingredient, is mag sulfate, it is mixed with EDTA, and vitamin C.  Cleans, out toxins, cleans out the arteries, and detoxifies in general.  I know I have eaten a bit more than a few pieces of #7 and 8 bird shot. Hopefully, this I.V. therapy, will get the lead out also, as well as all the other toxins, I was exposed to from the Army, and the Fire Dept.  But I wonder, how many Condors died from lead poisoning, by being shot.  could the bullet in the crop, have been a result of some idiot shooting at it, as it soared above?  Anyway, it is a subject that can be argued, back and forth, with facts,on both sides, and adlib, by either side, with an agenda.  J.W. brings up good points, about the buzzards eating anything hard, in a carcass, and the Condor, is nothing but a big buzzard, with gay colors! Jack Crafty, brings up good points also.  Money is a big factor in grants, for a study, of anything.  There was a guy who used to come on Johnny Carson, and he would show some of the wasteful Government grants.  One couple got a couple hundred grand, for an art grant.  The flew a plane, over the waters, of some South American, beach, and tossed out rolls of colored paper strips, and filmed it, and called it art.  The best one though, was a guy who got something, like 150 thousand dollars, to study social life, in a Peruvian uh.....house of kitties. So, I think it all comes down, to how you personally are affected, and your connections to one side or the other.  As for re introducing a almost extinct species, I don't think they put enough thought into it, as to how well that animal is going to fare, in a much reduced area, that it once thrived in, as for food, and shelter, etc.  The idiots that re introduced the wolves here, in Montana, and Wyoming, didn't think of the impact on the Moose, Elk, and deer populations.  Especially, after the wolf population bred far past their biggest estimate of how many wolves there would be in a few years, and the wolves they introduced were Canadian, and some were hybrids.  When you get a 250lb. wolf, that just isn't your normal wolf!  Yeah, the Condor, deserves to at least get a chance to survive in a much changed world, but I just don't see there being that much lead available to be eaten by them, before something else gets the "lost" game.  Just my opinion. 
                                     Wayne

                           

Deer were once all but wiped out. Bison, elk, Pheasants, Grouse, Ducks, Geese. Why don't you rant about how useless it was to reintroduce them? Just because it doesn't help you directly doesn't mean it doesn't really help you. Heavy metals don't just go away. Kinda like DDT. Look up the effects of it. It is so persistent that it still shows up as the most detected pesticide in children today, some 40 years after it was banned.


I think you have misinterpreted my "RANT", it wasn't a rant, it was as stated my opinion.  As for DDT, I am very aware, of it, and probably a little more informed on it than you realize.  There is still lumps of it found in the Mississippi delta, bayous,and surrounding tributaries, and along the banks of the Mississippi River.  The eagles, and Brown Pelicans, were almost wiped out because of it.  As for reintroducing, buffalo, deer, elk, pheasant, etc., again, I said, if there is room, food, shelter, etc..  As for the Pheasant, it was introduced here in 1800's from China.  It is not a native bird.  Slow down, and just read, what I said, and don't jump to conclusions.  Like I said, just my opinion.  You have to take into the equation the pollution, like people tossing out harmful materials.  As for the bullet fragments traveling into the guts, again, like I said, if they are gut shot, or near the gut, you may get some fragments.  But I don't throw the heart, and liver in the gut pile, I take them home, and eat them.  I trim up all around the wound channel, and that, and other non edible parts, are wrapped in a garbage bag, and buried.  There is not going to be any fragments shooting throughout the body.  I don't know what kind of bullets that you shoot, but mine go through, my Buddies, go through, and shot placement, is nowhere near the gut.  Yes the bullet expands, and if it hits bone, will shatter, but not to the extent, it sends shrapnel, throughout the body.  I just don't believe there is lead, copper jacket, etc. in the gut pile when a proper shot is made.  We have lots of eagles, on gut piles out here, and they are all doing well.  Lots of young ones too.  Including, Bald, and Golden.  As well as Ravens, and Magpies.  While there is definitely evidence pointing to lead poisoning, I just, "in my OPINION" think there is too much being made about it.  For what ever reason, noble, or financial.  Again, my Opinion. ;)  Now back to the original thread, I like Condors.  But how many will their habitat support?
                                    Wayne

Offline JoJoDapyro

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2015, 03:12:09 pm »
How many will their habitat support? It is a fair question. It will support them until it can't, at which point the population will level off. That is the difference between scavengers and opportunistic eaters, like deer. How many areas have a nuisance population of deer? It really comes down to how bad you want to help. Kinda like the "Anti-Meat" crowd. How many of them have pets that get fed commercial pet food? Is killing animals to feed animals different than killing animals to feed yourself?

Back on track. How hard is it to stop using lead ammo? The only case I know of in Utah that causes issues is hunting with a .45 muzzle loader. If using a saboted bullet, it drops it from a .45 to a .32 caliber bullet, and then you can't hunt Elk with them. We already have to use steel or Tungsten shot for all waterfowl, or any upland game in a waterfowl management area. The next step is stop using it in our rifles for hunting. As stated before, I stopped using lead sinkers this year, The steel alternative is a bit bigger for the weight, but cost isn't much different.

I can all but guarantee that if there was an issue with Deer dying from lead poisoning, and a way to help was to stop using lead ammo, most of us here would stop at the blink of an eye.
If you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got.
27 inch draw, right handed. Bow building and Knapping.

Offline stickbender

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2015, 03:28:40 pm »

     Agreed! ;)

                                   Wayne

Offline willie

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2015, 03:31:58 pm »
Quote
The topic is about these birds not lead poisoning in general
Eddie asked us to stay on it. thanks Zuma

I can appreciate the need to stay on topic with condors. I had also assumed that the topic included where the blame was being placed...

from the opening post
Quote
The thing that struck me peculiar was that they
blamed it on....

my request to JW about the existence of studies to ascertain if the fought over changes created the effects that were desired, was not an attempt to troll or go off topic, but rather to see if the use of our tax money  is being well spent.

As jack craftypoints out...   follow the money.....

I know wildlife researchers and technicians that enjoy their work as much as we enjoy our time in the field, but they would not have that job if they were not doing it at the taxpayers expense. I doubt that many in that field of work would get much work, if they did not play their cards with the politically correct tax money spenders, and deliver cherry picked "results". The damnedest thing is those tax-payer funded "results" are used to beat up the taxpayers without accountability to the true value received by the resource.

Offline JoJoDapyro

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2015, 03:34:50 pm »
Quote
The topic is about these birds not lead poisoning in general
Eddie asked us to stay on it. thanks Zuma

I can appreciate the need to stay on topic with condors. I had also assumed that the topic included where the blame was being placed...

from the opening post
Quote
The thing that struck me peculiar was that they
blamed it on....

my request to JW about the existence of studies to ascertain if the fought over changes created the effects that were desired, was not an attempt to troll or go off topic, but rather to see if the use of our tax money  is being well spent.

As jack craftypoints out...   follow the money.....

I know wildlife researchers and technicians that enjoy their work as much as we enjoy our time in the field, but they would not have that job if they were not doing it at the taxpayers expense. I doubt that many in that field of work would get much work, if they did not play their cards with the politically correct tax money spenders, and deliver cherry picked "results". The damnedest thing is those tax-payer funded "results" are used to beat up the taxpayers without accountability to the true value received by the resource.
Denying Science isn't very becoming. If you can prove that they are dying due to something else please post info to support your claim, otherwise it is just words.
If you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got.
27 inch draw, right handed. Bow building and Knapping.

Offline willie

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2015, 03:46:42 pm »
Jojo-

Quote
Denying Science isn't very becoming

seems to be getting close to name calling. You have missed my point entirely.

I am questioning whether it was really good science in the first place that we see so often.

Would you like to see some examples of  "less than well spent"  tax dollars, when it comes to wildlife studies?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 04:54:12 pm by willie »

Offline kleinpm

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2015, 05:18:00 pm »
I can't find it again but while working on my Masters in Education I came across a paper published by a physician that essentially stated women shouldn't attend higher education before they have babies because the blood flow to the brain would harm their reproductive organs.

I guess its a good thing some people questioned the "science" used by the physician.

Am I the only one here that is suspicious of 99% of what I read? - especially when the results of research allow the government to place more restrictions on me and give more power to the government.

Rant complete.

Patrick