Dogwood bow

[Josh B]

Where I come from there's an old saying, "if you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question."  I told you my opinion in a pretty straight forward manner and I can only assume that my post was at least one of the posts Joe is referring to.  I told you straight out so that you wouldn't waste any more time and effort on something that wasn't going to work out.  That was an honest effort to help you, not just mean spirited criticism.  Blackhawk is very direct in his responses.  Especially so in this case, but that is not to be a jerk.  He distilled the replies down to their essence because you didn't seem to get the message from the tactful approach.  That knot is already cracked...problem one.  The bigger problem is that underneath the knot, you have a pocket of rot that is leaving that section unsupported.  No amount of backing is going to hold for long.  That's why I tried to help you avoid investing more time and effort into an inevitable heartbreak.  If you can't handle someone telling you straight answers, you're going to find yourself getting no answers.  As far as the bow goes, I've given you my best advice.  As far as your attitude goes, I can only advice that you man up.  Josh

[James Rodney]

Gun, it wasn't you that irritated me.  I heard everyone's advice.  i accept the bow it trash. doesn't mean i can't take a crap bow and practice backing with it.  i did mention that just a little while ago.  if it's trash, then it's trash.  Blackhawk just has a lovely way with words.  I admit i was irritated about other things.  and the sarcastic reply just made me have to show my tail. 

apologies to everyone.

just because someone doesn't take your advice, doesn't mean it wasn't heard. 

 falling is sometimes the best teacher.

[Josh B]

Well...that's certainly a step in the right direction.  When I first joined here, I also let outside issues affect me and posted an unwarranted and unacceptable reply.  I didn't go as far as you did, but I did feel the need to post a heartfelt apology and learned to think a little more before posting.  I do have the occasional relapse though.  It is true that Blackhawk needled you a bit.  After you've done this for awhile and look back on this, you can thank him for it.  I'll try to explain that statement.  As I've said it did not appear that the message was getting through and the thought of that bow being put in the hands of a child was more than a little disconcerting.  Even though you eventually decided to make it a practice run, it would've still been a waste of time and sinew. By his actions, you seemed to at least start to acknowledge the fact that the attempt was in vane.   Although I agree that we learn a lot from failures, you would not of learned much by sinewing this bow.  Say you got all your sinew applied, wait for it to cure, string it up and it blows up.  Was it the knot that caused it or did you not apply the sinew properly?  See what I mean?  A lot of beginners have the same notion of continuing on a bow after they already know its a failed attempt for "practice".  I suspect its because they've already made the mistake of getting attached to their first bow.  That logic is faulty though.  It's not really their first bow, it's their first attempt.  They're better off if the learn from the mistake(s) and start over.  There's no sense in saddling a dead horse so to speak.  Blackhawk may have irritated you, but he did you a solid by doing it.  Try to keep that in mind.  Josh

[wizardgoat]

Nicely said Josh.
Some guys will praise a disaster of a bow to be nice, but some guys will tell you there's a hinge.
I too am learning this craft, and the hard truth is what I'd rather have.
Blackhawk comes from years of bow building experience, and his advice has helped me huge.
It's hard to not get attached to a piece of wood, the more you make the more they become just that, pieces of wood. Good luck

[Marc St Louis]

James
The bow I posted a picture of was sinew patched about 12 years ago.  I still have the bow and braced and pulled it back the other day, didn't shoot it though.

If you look at Chris' (blackhawk) signature it says " I'm the bad Chris".  I guess now you know that you can take that literally 

[JoJoDapyro]

I would rather have these wise men tell me straight up, than to have them tell me it looks good when it doesn't. It is a hit to the ego, but at least you are learning. One thing I have learned, never pull a bow back past the intended draw weight.

[Spotted Dog]

Wise words. I have listened and learned from you all. I have taken a short break to really look hard at what I want to succeed at
with my bows. 
I almost have my Meare Heath bow ready to raw hide back by slowing down to taking heed to wise council.

Dog

[James Rodney]

err, i'm over it.. i was already irritated when i signed on.  and his words just kinda Pee'd me off.  there's a right and wrong way to say things.  I was taught to say things in a way that you'd want them said to you.  and growing up where i did, talking smack even if it is wise counsel would get you hurt.   i don't live that way myself, but habits are hard to break.  now to the bow, i actually took the whole thing down another growth ring, and the wood started turning like a purple color.  when i hit the other side, devil be me, i rasp'd down to ANOTHER knot!  so i put some arrow's in it just to try and break it. stupid thing is stubborn.. 45 arrows later i just put it to the knee. 

just want to say again, i'm sorry for being brash.  Also, just because i was still trying to move on with it, doesn't mean i didn't know it was a failure. tiller practice never hurts. i had resigned to finishing this bow the first 5-6 comments on this post.  i bought some osage orange on ebay, only 30$.. it should be here friday (ish).  i'm not touching that until i know for a fact that im not going to mess it up.  and i hope i haven't ruined all you good folks from helping me.

I'ma turn the bad Chris, into a good Chris.

[bowandarrow473]

Your bow is not braced yet?
Yes looks like Pacific Dogwood is free game, thanks for the info.
There's too much good yew to cut around here though, not sure if I could spare the room 😉
And congrats on the kid, my wife is pregnant as well 😀

I stumbled upon the info while reading an old thread about a guy who was going to cut some red osier and then was recommended pacific dogwood but thought like yourself that the law was still in place but thankfully someone looked it up and showed him that it had been repealed. I hear it makes a good bow, you'll have to tell me about it's working properties, and how it compares to flowering dogwood.

[bowandarrow473]

Very funny meme, and you have to be careful with that $30 osage on eBay, but we shall see Friday what it looks like.

Also, the trading section here on Primitive archer is a great place to trade for some osage and other woods. Try it out. You might be surprised at some peoples generosity on here

[wizardgoat]

Pacific dogwood is also a flowering type, it's our provincial flower
Someone told me it's our hardest local wood, its wonderful to work and also had the pinkish swirls in it

[bowandarrow473]

Sounds beautiful, hope to see a few made of the stuff from you in the future, your excellent craftsmanship is never a disappointment and I'm sure you'll create some more fantastic bows for us to drool at

[GB]

I know from experience that it's a sinking feeling to hear that a bow you've put some time and sweat into has a fatal flaw.  I guess some guys can just shrug it off and start on another one, but it puts me in a funk for a couple of days.  Soon as I take the lesson learned and start on a new bow, surprisingly, everything is good again.
Yeah, Blackhawk doesn't sugar coat his advice.  Gotta remember not to take it as a personal attack, that's just his take on the piece of wood.  3 years ago I posted my first backed bow on TG.  The backing was a beautiful  horribly violated (like a dozen rings worth plus pin knots) slat of red elm.  It still makes me wince to think about it now.  Of course, ol' Bad Chris called me on it.  I think a called him an internet troll and a few other things in return.  I apologized later.  The second day I shot the bow it raised a splinter.  I glued that one down and it raised another one.  Since that day I only use the straightest grained wood I can find and it's usually hickory for backing.  So even if you could change Chris (good luck with that), would you really want to?  IMO there is a long learning curve to bow making and an honest take from the experienced guys on here will get you there sooner.  At least, that's how it has worked for me.
Good luck with your Osage stave.  My favorite self bow is from a thin ringed $25 or $30 Osage stave that I was the only bidder on ebay.

[Pappy]

" Never fall in love with a piece of wood"  My 1st rule of bow making. Glad to see things have settled down. Now James grab another piece of wood and go at it.
   Pappy

[Limbit]

There is a lot to be gleaned from planning on breaking a bow. I suggest you carefully and systematically break it. I did this the other day to a mulberry bow I was ready to through out I was so frustrated with it. I decided to test the species of mulberry I was working with here in Taiwan by breaking this one on the tiller tree.  I was shocked to see my little 60'' mulberry bow bend to 32'' before finally splitting (more like folding) along an emerging hinge. I had only planned for it to draw to 24 in my design. Mind you, I had violated numerous rings at that point and it was only pulling 38# at 24''. Point is, it wasn't a waste of time breaking or making it. I learned a lot about the limits of the wood I have access to and that is invaluable information! So, be careful and go about breaking it after you devise a means you think could possibly save it. I think this will tell you just how far a repair will go and how far you can stress this species. Of course, repeated use is different than an immediate break, but logically, it should still break at the same spot over time.