Author Topic: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota  (Read 7539 times)

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Offline JackCrafty

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  • Sorry Officer, I was just gathering "materials".
Written in 1996 (almost 20 years old) this article by John Whittaker presents evidence for copper pressure flaking tools many hundreds of years prior to evidence for bows and arrows in the New World.  I present it here so that those who do not know, or have not been exposed to the idea, can see that copper pressure flakers are not a modern "thing".  Many have chosen to ignore this idea over the years or have asked for "proof".

I don't want to cause a scene here, just putting out information.   O:)

http://web.grinnell.edu/anthropology/Faculty/JohnWhittaker/Articles/1996_Some_Prehistoric_Copper_Flaking_Tools_in_Minnesota.PDF
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Offline Outbackbob48

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2015, 12:09:04 pm »
Thanks Patrick, very informitive and I am sure it's going to get controversial. Bob

Offline Chippintuff

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2015, 12:31:33 pm »
Thanks Patrick. It is always difficult for people to adjust to "new" ideas. As a general rule, assumptions rule till facts force them aside. No I have not done any research on this topic myself, but neither have I seen any evidence posted to rebut the idea, while I have seen postings offering evidence in agreement with this. I'm not an argumentative person, but I do like to see people offer evidence for their stands.

WA

Offline Zuma

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2015, 02:11:54 pm »
Thanks for the link Patrick.
Here is a link to some copper mining.
I have been to Jerome AZ. Cool place.
It's an easy read but fascinating in scope.
Zuma

Ancient America: Aboriginal Mining - Daily Kos

www.dailykos.com/story/.../-Ancient-America-Aboriginal-Mining - Similarto Ancient America: Aboriginal Mining - Daily Kos
Jun 10, 2012 ... Copper tools included adzes, awls, fishhooks, harpoons, socketed axes, ... An ongoing series sponsored by the Native American Netroots team ...


« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 02:16:04 pm by Zuma »
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline Chippintuff

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2015, 02:51:14 pm »
Zuma, I cannot open the links you posted. I agree with Iowabow. The part about wear patterns is very interesting. Has anybody compared artifacts from other copper cultures around the world?

WA

Offline turbo

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2015, 04:21:42 pm »
I've always known about the copper knapping tools found in the Great Lakes/Midwest region. I think the question (for me) is how widespread they were used but there's no doubt they were used. Here's a page from lithic guru Larry Kinsella on some Midwest copper pressure flakers to add to the discussion: http://flintknapper.com/NEW%20HACKER%20FLAKER.htm

Pardon if it's mentioned in the original article, I've just skimmed it.


Offline Hummingbird Point

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2015, 06:57:07 pm »
Not doubting the use of copper, but I do wonder why no testing of the artifacts and/or flakes found in association with the probable pressure flakers was done to look for traces of copper.  Certainly some of the artifacts associated with the site must still exist in collections somewhere, so perhaps there is an opportunity there for modern science.  (I am assuming that if blood proteins can be identified on Clovis artifacts, there is some way to detect the presence of an elemental metal on younger artifacts, but that may not be the case.)

Keith

Offline nclonghunter

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2015, 07:44:48 pm »
I have wondered that also. With the fantastic microscopes available today it would be a great study to view the edges of original points for what is trapped there.
There are no bad knappers, only bad flakes

Offline Outbackbob48

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2015, 08:22:51 pm »
John, I'm not questioning wether copper was used , My question is, If copper was used why are we excluding it from being ABO? I personally don't care  what people use to make there points, I like using all the tools. Antler, stone , copper even biscuits. I have tried ABO some and worked good on some materials and on others I struggled. I like  trying to knapp every material that I can get my hands on so I guess I will be a copperhead for now :D Bob

Offline Chippintuff

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2015, 12:03:46 am »
Thanks guys for the informative articles. This is turning out to be a really good discussion. I also am for testing artifacts for further evidence, but I don't know what permissions etc. might involved or whether the artifacts might have to be altered to do the testing.

WA

Stringman

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2015, 09:19:37 am »
My question is, If copper was used why are we excluding it from being ABO?

"Daddy, does that mean they will call me 'ABO' and give me a special seat, and hang jewels around my neck?"

"I don't know son, let's see what the judges say."

 >:D :laugh: :laugh: :o ;D ;D ;)

All in jest for shore, but truth be told, it doesn't matter to me what ya call it. I work with copper tools and only play around with stone and bone.

Offline caveman2533

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2015, 09:45:24 am »
At Oregon Ridge Primitive skills weekend in MD it has always been a strictly  ABO tool kit and we can use our copper pressure flakers but not billets. good info. I have seen some articles of supposed billets also. I can't think it would be much of a leap to pick up a nugget and use it for a hammerstone.

Offline Chippintuff

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2015, 11:22:51 am »
http://journals.ed.ac.uk/lithicstudies/article/view/1126/1632

Freeze Cracked posted this link on another forum in a thread about deep notching. It is very interesting to me because of it's comments on the use of copper in knapping some points.

WA

Offline bowmo

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2015, 11:37:45 am »
The evidence of copper use is nothing new really. There's long since been findings that show that it was used, but it would the exception not the standard. As few findings as there are for copper tools and with antler, bone, wood, and stone being so common and easy to come by over copper, I feel it's safe to say the fast majority of points were made with out the use of metal. It's almost like saying small pieces of cardboard will get you rich just because one guy one the lottery with a scratch off  ::)

AncientTech

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Re: Possible Copper Pressure Flakers in the Archaic Era in Minnesota
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2015, 02:12:52 pm »
John, I'm not questioning wether copper was used , My question is, If copper was used why are we excluding it from being ABO? I personally don't care  what people use to make there points, I like using all the tools. Antler, stone , copper even biscuits. I have tried ABO some and worked good on some materials and on others I struggled. I like  trying to knapp every material that I can get my hands on so I guess I will be a copperhead for now :D Bob

The reason that people exclude copper from ABO is because they assume that copper was not used, and they assume that more natural flaking tools were used, such as wood, antler, ivory, stone, etc. 

Beyond this, many knappers assume that ancient knappers simply invented techniques on a whim.  And, so any use of certain materials, for flaking tools, is believed to be a potential candidate for a bonafide practice, especially if a person can get a flake, and a flake scar, that looks like a match.

This entire line of reasoning is totally flawed.  There are way too many assumptions, and unsubstantiated beliefs, involved.  It is much safer to take known flakers into account - or even make known flakers the starting point.  To ignore the known evidence, and then come up with theories is a travesty.

That being said, Ishi switched to steel, for pressure flaking.  And, there was a reason why he chose steel over antler.  If a person looks at Ishi's choice of a pressure flaker, and then looks at the material he frequently worked, and the considers the reason he stated for using a steel pressure flaker, what becomes apparent is that the explanation that Cushing gave, during the 19th century, regarding materials and flakers, might just be more valid then people think.  And, if a person considers the practice that Ishi exhibited, and the bulk of the explanations given by tribal-trained Cushing, then one would have to expand the possibilities, regarding tools like these.  But, that would require taking into account far more aboriginal flintknapping criteria, that was never taken into account, by disconnected European researchers, who did not understand any flintknapping very well, much less Native American flintknapping.  And, if the full gamut of criteria, regarding evidence of known/suspected flaking practices, is taken into account, then one would have to honestly admit that some of these tools might not be pressure flakers at all.  That being said, at a certain point, it is sometimes quite difficult to discern when a flaking tool was used in one specific manner, or was used in two different modes, that are quite distinct from each other.  In some cases, one would probably have to narrow it down, by looking at the type of stone that had been worked, with said tools.  And, once again, this dovetails with the issue that Cushing raised, during the 19th century, when it seems he tried to help European academics better understand the subject.