Author Topic: ABO techniques, processes and tools.  (Read 108438 times)

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Offline iowabow

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #240 on: October 23, 2015, 12:36:46 pm »
Great thank you Zuma
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline Hummingbird Point

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #241 on: October 23, 2015, 01:33:53 pm »
iowabow,

Not sure if your comments are directed toward Zuma or toward me, since you quoted both posts.  If to Zuma, he and I know one another well enough to take little pokes at each other.  He is as fine a knapper as I have met and in talking with him it if apparent he has done a lot of research and put a lot of thought into archaeology knapping, and other primitive skills.

If the comments are directed at me, I do not understand.  I laid out an example of how another group of knappers used the Scientific Method to come up with a solution.  The last part of that method is to "publish" so others can review and test the idea.  I am trying to convince Ben to do that, because:

I think he's on to something.  I understand (and deeply respect the opinion) that Caveman has about the flakes not matching, but that may just be a matter of tweeking the system, which is another reason to share the information. 

In any event, I'm going to be tied up for a few days any way, and have asked Ben for assistence in as many was I I know how, so I will shut up and knap.

Keith

Offline iowabow

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #242 on: October 23, 2015, 01:42:03 pm »
ok guys if there is no issue then I am relieved.
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline Spotted Dog

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #243 on: October 23, 2015, 01:58:04 pm »
I by no means want to butt in , but I am amazed at all the thinking and science to knap. I am reading and watching everything I can.
I took a Burlington flake and some abo tools earlier today and made since of it. Got one point in. Not a beautiful one , but will work.
Trying to discern platforms and abraiding and such is a bit confusing but you all help.

Thank you,
Dog
A three strand cord is not easily broken. Ecc.4:12

Offline le0n

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #244 on: October 23, 2015, 02:11:42 pm »
I took a Burlington flake and some abo tools earlier today and made since of it. Got one point in. Not a beautiful one , but will work.

congratulations :)

start a thread with photos of your tool set and your first point.

i'll look out for it ;)

Offline Spotted Dog

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #245 on: October 23, 2015, 03:11:06 pm »
DONE !!  :laugh:
A three strand cord is not easily broken. Ecc.4:12

PeteDavis

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #246 on: October 23, 2015, 09:12:11 pm »


Matching the debitage from local workshops with our own gives me fair confidence that the wood methods are in fact a technological hardstone reduction strategy of the late archaic. Old news to many of us.

Keith, I need some help....oh, never mind.

PD

AncientTech

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #247 on: October 24, 2015, 12:06:03 am »
Ben,

So I'll tell you the brief history of eastern quartzite knapping, as i know it.  A few decades ago some academic knappers/archaeologists who were good flint knappers were trying to figure out quartzite knapping based on what they were seeing in the artifacts and work sites in Virginia and New Jersey. They could see that the overall model was the same as with other lithic resources, where fairly large, fairly thin, flat bifaces were being produced at the rock sources, but they couldn't consistently match the results.  Hammer stones were fine for spalling and some early work but absolutely sucked beyond that.  Antler worked somewhat, some of the time, but that elevator clearly wasn't going all the way to the top.  Probably based on the earlier work in Europe with boxwood billets, someone decided to try hitting the quartzite with wood.  It worked.  For reasons I don't understand, wood it able to consistently drive the long thinning flakes across a piece of average eastern quartzite in a way that other materials can't, to produce flat, relatively thin bifaces.

Now if I am understanding your thought process correctly, you would say that since no white men ever saw any Native Americans using wood percussion knapping tools, and since no such tools have been found by archaeologists, that method of knapping quartzite is invalid, wasn't used, isn't "abo".  Is that correct?

So fast forward to a few years ago and a knapper in the Blue Ridge Mountains was looking at quartzite artifacts and work sites and trying to figure out how the hell they worked this stuff.  He finds the old research, because it was made public, and tries it.  It works.  He puts the idea on Paleo Planet and the thread explodes, going to over 20 pages, with at least another 20 on side topics relating to quartzite knapping.  So a few years later and guys up and down the east coast are working quartzite with wood and getting the same results.  But no white guys ever wrote down that that is the Indian way, and where are the tools, so sorry guys, wrong, not "abo"?

So the knapper mentioned above is Pete Davis.  I feel I owe a real debt to Pete.  I mean if he called me up right now and said he needed help hiding a body I would actually give serious consideration to saying yes, and I'm a real Boy Scout (literally).  See the thing is, I got into knapping after a neighbor showed me an "arrow head" he found.  It was made of quartzite and I was determined to figure out how it could of been made.  I got pretty far at figuring out knapping in general, but quartzite knapping still evaded me.  So Pete putting that information out there and getting the dialogue going helped me find that "holy grail" of knapping I was looking for.

So you mentioned fluting with your method.  As soon as I saw the results you were getting, I was already thinking about it's application to fluting.  When you mentioned that the technique involves pulling instead of pushing the flake off, it immediately struck a chord with me because I have been thinking along the same lines but can't figure out how to do it.  I'm stumbling around a dark room bumping into stuff.  Can you help with the light switch?

Keith

So, do you think that Pete Davis stumbled on to something?  Here is some of my wooden baton work, from around 2006 (almost 10 years prior to today, 2015):

















I actually made an entire website devoted to the subject of wooden baton knapping, back around 2006.  That was around ten years ago.  Also, there was this fellow named "Marty" who was quite against the idea.  Eventually he came around, though. 

The irony is that I also came around, because I discovered that my whole approach to flintknapping had been made in almost complete ignorance of critical evidence.  My ignorance was a blindness.  And, looking at the overwhelming evidence of a +10,000 year tradition is the cure. 

Here is five years later.  I am detaching a blade with a wooden punch:

https://youtu.be/jNpTqGfHWRk?list=UU-w49Lxzg-ee24ms6LBJdQQ

So, this means that I know something about wooden batons, and about wooden punches.

Beyond that, here is probably a more aboriginally accurate use of a flaking process, involving a wooden punch:





















This proves that I was experimenting with wooden batons about ten years ago, and I have been experimenting with wooden punches, over the last five years.  So, no one can say that I do not have experience with batons.

So, why would I reject baton use?  I don't "reject" it, even though I know that indirect percussion technology is infinitely better. 

But, with regard to "aboriginal American" flintknapping, virtually all knowledgeable observers, informants, scientists, ethnographers, soldiers, etc, pointed to the use of various forms of indirect percussion, as a known stage in Native American lithic reduction. 

The ORIGINAL understanding was that aboriginal American knappers frequently started out with direct hammerstone percussion, followed by finer indirect percussion, then followed by pressure flaking.  Obviously, not all reduction followed this pattern.  But, a great deal of it was believed to have followed this pattern.  This was the predominant view in American archaeology, until probably the 1920's or 1930's.  And, people did not hold this belief because of the work of Flint Jack, or some other European experimenter.  There was simply too much evidence, going back to Catlin's account, published in the late 1860's - but probably witnessed between 1830 and 1840 - that pointed to sophisticated indirect percussion. 

Also, the signs of battering, and other peculiarities, were noted by many dozens of independent archaeologists, working in different parts of the country, for maybe over one hundred years.  Archaeological study did not do away with the idea.  The study of archaeologists actually strengthened the idea. 

The baton knapping idea was an alien idea imported from Europe.  The more a person focuses on baton technology, the less they are focusing on aboriginal American technology.  What the flintknapping community has engaged in is a matter of shunning known evidence.  People give all of these reasons why they are not interested in actual evidence, and then they promote a view of which there never was any evidence.  If two wrongs do not make something right, thousands of wrongs certainly do not make something right. 

You wrote:

"Now if I am understanding your thought process correctly, you would say that since no white men ever saw any Native Americans using wood percussion knapping tools, and since no such tools have been found by archaeologists, that method of knapping quartzite is invalid, wasn't used, isn't "abo".  Is that correct?"

That is not the point.  The point is that there is evidence of BETTER flaking technologies, than baton knapping.  So, look at it this way, you could go from an alien European method, to a BETTER METHOD, if you can narrow down what that method might have been, based on the known evidence from the Americas.  Then, at that point, you can hammer out all of the fine differences between the results of each method, and make a FAIR JUDGMENT.  But, there is no fair judgment when forty years of promotion is given to an alien European idea, and forty years of zip goes to the evidence of Native American flintknapping.  Once again, I am probably in a better position to give a fair judgment than anyone else, because I have worked with both technologies.

The reason that I know what I know is because I spent the last five years constantly studying every shred of evidence, pertaining to lithic technologies, used in both the historic era, and the prehistoric era.  I also was very fortunate in that I got input from a world class professional Danish dagger replicator, before he died.  Think about it.  One of the best flintknappers on planet earth, changed his position, and concluded that I was on the right track, before he died, last year.  He could have replicated anything.  But, he chose Danish daggers because the pay was really high.  Still, his real interest was paleo.  And, he died before he was able to see most of the stuff that I can now produce.  Still, he thought that I was on the right track, based on the overwhelming evidence that I presented.  And, the evidence really represents the life works of other people who lived, and died, before I was ever born.  Unfortunately, Philip Churchill is not longer with us, today. 

The problem with people today is that they want to take an anti-evidential approach, and then make it up as they go along.  That approach has never worked.  And, the evidence from the Americas is so sophisticated that it will never work.  That is why no one can figure out my outrepasse flaking, EVEN THOUGH I SHOW THE DEER TINE TOOL. 

The longer this continues the greater my appreciation grows for Cushing, Holmes, and others, who made a very concerted effort at recovering the nearly lost flintknapping practices of the Native Americans.  Decades of researchers were not content with sitting at home, and making it up as they went along. 

Also, when I say that I give myself very little credit it is because I am conscious of the fact that I am standing on the shoulders of giants.  I actually have a better understanding of some of the things that they documented, then maybe what they understood themselves.  Still, they are the ones who collected the evidence.  I am just the "lucky boy" who got to play with it, and unravel some of the meaning behind the evidence.

Anyway, I do not think that the term "abo" should be used loosely.  It creates the impression that the use of any sort of stone, or organic material makes something "aboriginal".  And, this is not true.  The term "aboriginal" does not mean natural/organic material. 

When flintknappers say "aboriginal" they are usually talking about "natural based" flintknapping, with regard to materials.  To call the antler baton method an "aboriginal method" would be akin to calling it part of someone's culture.  And, no scientist has ever demonstrated that flintknapping batons are a culturally predictable trait. 

What flintknappers will say is that it can be "inferred" by flakes, and flake scars.  This thinking is fallacious at heart, because you can not rule out unknown technology B, simply by demonstrating known technology A.  It is possible that unknown technology B might do a better job than known technology A.

I can tell people how fast my ten speed goes, all day long.  But, just because I am ignorant about combustion engines, and Nascar race cars, does not mean that my ten speed is the fastest vehicle on the planet.  If I think so, it might just reflect my ignorance, especially if I have no way to know any better (or don't want to know any better).     

If people want to make up flintknapping as they go along, I do not care.  But, if they want to make up flintknapping, and then call it "aboriginal", that would be akin to me making up point types, and then calling them "aboriginal", when there might not be any evidence that the point type ever existed.     

I hope that this makes my views clearer.  I do not care how people flintknap.  I do care when people start making claims about other people's culture, when those claims cannot be substantiated. 

Also, I happen to think that it is in the best interest of the flintknapping community to man up to the evidence, grow a backbone, and tackle the evidence head on.  The reason that really experienced archaeologists do not talk to flintknappers is because they already know that baton knapping, hammerstone flaking, and pressure flaking, cannot account for a lot of what they see.  So, what is the point in talking to a "flintknapper"?  And, who in his right mind is going to consult a copper percussion knapper?  It is not happening.   

My solution to all of this is simple:  FOCUS ON THE EVIDENCE, in whatever shape or form it might exist in.  This is what everyone else did, before people started claiming that they could "divine" the practice from flakes, and flake scars, alone.  People have already completely lost sight of well documented evidence, that has been on the books for decades, if not longer.

My bid is to make flintknapping relevant again. 

Ben





             





AncientTech

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #248 on: October 24, 2015, 10:01:38 am »
Forget about ancient flaking.  This is a Pomo obsidian blade/knife.  And, people who have done their homework should know about the few early 20th century Pomo knappers, that were still around.

Look at the thinness, as well as the flatness, of the flake scars.  How about the thinness to width ratio?   



There is a reason why some individuals were obtaining obsidian products, from a few Pomo knappers, in the beginning of the 20th century.


   


AncientTech

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #249 on: October 24, 2015, 10:57:00 am »
KING SITE - 16TH CENTURY FLINTKNAPPING KITS



















































Guess what flintknapping tool was not found with the flintknapping kits, or in the burials, of deceased 16th century flintknappers?  It was not hammerstones.  It was not antler cylinders.  It was not tine flakers.  I will give a hint, the tool that was not found - as noted in a separate report on the flintknapping toolkits - is a tool that was invented in England, in the mid-1930's, that hypothetically could resolve what hammerstones could not resolve, with regard to intermediate flaking, or post-hammerstone finer flaking.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 12:23:32 pm by AncientTech »

AncientTech

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #250 on: October 24, 2015, 01:43:06 pm »
ABO KNAPPING:


AncientTech

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #251 on: October 24, 2015, 05:49:02 pm »
1870's Kaikavit Paiute Arrowmaker in front of his home in Northern Arizona


AncientTech

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #252 on: October 24, 2015, 07:36:56 pm »
HUPA ARROWMAKING KIT - COLLECTED BY P.H. RAY, 1880'S IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

KIT WAS SHOWN AT THE COLUMBIAN EXHIBITION, IN MADRID, IN THE 1890'S

KIT WAS STORED AT THE US NATIONAL MUSEUM



DESRCIPTION OF ITEMS IN KIT:



PITCHING TOOL:



PITCHING TOOL was a long column of antler, or "hard bone" (ivory), used to detach FLAKES, BLADES, AND SPALLS.  Why did early researchers adopt the term "pitching tools"?  The answer to that question explains how they thought the tools were used, based on eye witness information, and on common knowledge. 

Here is a revolutionary idea:  Why not study HOW the Indians made their chipped stone tools, according to the evidence that was previously documented!





AncientTech

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #253 on: October 24, 2015, 07:56:47 pm »

The fact that a person can demonstrate drastic overshot flaking, and everything less, with a simple deer tine, is pretty telling.  But, it does not mean that every variable is necessarily exactly the same, in the lesser flaking, even if the process is essentially the same.

I have never seen anyone demonstrate the ability to do that.

Well, then did the Clovis people demonstrate it?  If you say, "yes", then I shall ask when you "saw" it.  And, if you say "no", then I shall ask why people say that Clovis made overshot?

I already showed Clovis overshot flakes, made with a deer tine.  Would you to see it again?  I have shown as much proof as the Clovis people have shown.

The missing crescent on the right is where the edge of the stone detached.  That means that the opposite edge was removed.  That means that it was an overshot:







Also, you think that my initiations look bulbous?  Here is a flute:



Here is the initiation:



In archaeology that is called a "diffuse bulb of percussion".  I can show Clovis flaking that has far stronger bulbs of percussion, than that. 

Of course, if you had an objective discussion with Philip, before he died, I think he would have told you that the initiation is, to some degree, tied to the shape of the flaker.

dem·on·strate

/ˈdemənˌstrāt/

verb: demonstrate; 3rd person present: demonstrates; past tense: demonstrated; past participle: demonstrated; gerund or present participle: demonstrating

1.

clearly show the existence or truth of (something) by giving proof or evidence.
"their shameful silence demonstrates their ineptitude"

synonyms: reveal, bespeak, indicate, signify, signal, denote, show, display, exhibit; More



 


Offline caveman2533

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #254 on: October 24, 2015, 08:03:30 pm »
I have not seen a Clovis hunter do it nor have I seen you do it.  You have shown pictures of an overshot and a flaker, not you doing it. Not the same.  I would ask you the same, Have you seen a Clovis hunter do it. The answer is no. So you have no more credibility than any one else. You are only inferring which is what we are all doing. It is the foundation of Archaeology and Anthropology, since none of us were there we can only infer from the evidence and the results of Experimental archaeology.

I have been using wooden batons(billets ) since 1999. Others  have been doing it much longer,  when you and I(Ben) were still in diapers.

 The problem I see with Ben's theory is he is trying to apply his short peg punch hold it between your fingers, in his palm to everything. It does not and will not produce the results we see in  the materials used in the Northeast Archaic broadspear traditions. Wooden billets  do this very well where nothing else produces the same results. There is a finite list of material available to the Native Knappers. It had to be bone, stone , antler or wood. Technique is a different matter, multiple combinations of. The Archaic in the Midwest and West and South was different than in the Northeast. Same techniques will not apply. Different source material, different end product.

Pete Davis made no claim to have stumbled onto something and if you go back and read it Keith did not make the claim that Pete discovered anything. Pete merely brought it to the  front and it has caught on from his efforts to promote it. He and others are standing on the shoulders of others (Cresson, Callahan,Silsby, and others) who went years before on a quest to determine the methods used to work this gnarly rock found in the Northeast.   As was said nothing new to some of us. The difference I see is the ability to discuss techniques, methods etc. within that group, sharing ideas, respecting one anothers talent and opinions, and an interest in finding the answers and producing results, that match the record.

The most recent round of pictures and archaeological remains I believe actually bolster Keith's theory that Ben is missing an entire tool set. All these pictures and remains are not suitable to produce the first stages of quarry production. Show me some tools from the quarry not a burial. Ben keeps asking, "Why can't you guys figure out how I am using the punch I keep showing you?"   Well there are only two ways it can be used, You are either hitting it on the end like a typical punch or you are hitting it on the side like a typical rocker punch. Can't see it being done any other way. How its being held does not really change the direction of force. Neither are new or  unique.