Author Topic: ABO techniques, processes and tools.  (Read 99900 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #150 on: October 17, 2015, 11:01:49 pm »
Ben,
Actually after taking a better look at the divot point I am
pretty sure it was destroyed by the last flute impact.
Check the perpendicular crack at the end of the longest flute.
It also seems to run at a 180 right up to the divot??
That is why it is not finished,
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline caveman2533

  • Member
  • Posts: 640
  • Steve Nissly
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #151 on: October 18, 2015, 12:40:07 am »
The divot in the end of the point could easily have been made by placing the flake back in the scar and striking it again. I have done this many times. Also a note of interest, it is not difficult to find whitetail antler that is quite dense and hard. I have one that approximates the size of several of the "drift"punches pictured. It works quite well for late stage thinning.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 07:51:58 am by caveman2533 »

Offline iowabow

  • member
  • Member
  • Posts: 4,722
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #152 on: October 18, 2015, 07:30:51 am »
This is great and no I really don't feel hijacked at all. I think this post has a great mix of history demonstration and respectful debate going on and I am enjoying the dialogue. Please continue everyone.
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

AncientTech

  • Guest
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #153 on: October 18, 2015, 07:34:03 am »
Madisonville "punches" (punches outnumbered flakers 1000 to 1 at the Madisonville site):







The wear patterns on these flaking tools, and the wear patterns on similar flaking tools from Belize, make me suspect that the tools may not have been struck on the ends.  There is no reason to think that a process analogous to a composite bit pressure flaker could have been used, only with a stronger form of energy delivery.  Another parallel may be seen in Catlin's 3-man indirect percussion flaking staff, used in quarries. 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 07:58:21 am by AncientTech »

AncientTech

  • Guest
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #154 on: October 18, 2015, 07:38:23 am »
Elderly Apache knapper encountered by Professor Bonney, in Arizona, around the beginning of the 20th century:





Read online, starting page 340, Hathitrust, Scientific American Supplement No. 2213:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015006964954;view=1up;seq=344
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 07:48:29 am by AncientTech »

Offline iowabow

  • member
  • Member
  • Posts: 4,722
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #155 on: October 18, 2015, 08:34:30 am »
The sun rises over the knapping pit with a clear sky. I hope to have a marathon knapping day. Yesterday I gave the hands a break. After 3 weeks now of knapping almost everyday (i managed about 50 during this time) I feel in shape to really knock out some points. The "ABO"point count is approaching ~83 total. I have been focusing on small points for the most part to build up my strength, skill and to reduce my flake collection. A new bit was placed in the ishi about 19 points ago. I should get another 10 from it. This new bit is grayish in color compared to the old one. I once thought the color difference was related to hardness so we will see if this is true  not by the point count. The ulna that has made many hundred points is coming to the end of its use. It has been a great tool and is smooth and polished from our working together in making so many points. This bone is hollow toward the end and I expect to hit that section soon during knapping and then will know it's time to set my old companion aside and start with a new one.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 08:39:22 am by iowabow »
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

AncientTech

  • Guest
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #156 on: October 18, 2015, 08:54:16 am »
The sun rises over the knapping pit with a clear sky. I hope to have a marathon knapping day. Yesterday I gave the hands a break. After 3 weeks now of knapping almost everyday (i managed about 50 during this time) I feel in shape to really knock out some points. The "ABO"point count is approaching ~83 total. I have been focusing on small points for the most part to build up my strength, skill and to reduce my flake collection. A new bit was placed in the ishi about 19 points ago. I should get another 10 from it. This new bit is grayish in color compared to the old one. I once thought the color difference was related to hardness so we will see if this is true  not by the point count. The ulna that has made many hundred points is coming to the end of its use. It has been a great tool and is smooth and polished from our working together in making so many points. This bone is hollow toward the end and I expect to hit that section soon during knapping and then will know it's time to set my old companion aside and start with a new one.

You should post a photo of your tools, to show the wear patterns.

In archaeology, in order to demonstrate that an item is a culturally predictable trait (as opposed to a once in million fluke), one must show the creation of the tool, the use of the tool, the wear of the tool, the refurbishment of the tool, and the final expenditure of the tool, in archaeological contexts. 

Because the original Americans so strongly believed in the afterlife, they typically included items, such as flintknapping toolkits, in the graves of deceased flintknappers.  And, these toolkits reflect the tools that the knapper would have used, during his own lifetime.  Many flintknapping toolkits were disposed of, with the deceased.  These toolkits were also fairly standardized, but varied in different regions of North America.  This is how we know what tools were being used.  What is not always known is how the tools were used.  Use wear patterns are probably an important key in unraveling the use of the tools, especially the small tools that both archaeologists, and flintknappers, have struggled to understand, over the last century. 

Also, with regard to wooden tools, there are plenty of dry sites, in the west, that have yielded wood, and plant, artifacts that are many thousands of years old.  So, we do have some record of such artifacts, in the west.  And, in other places, such artifacts have been recovered from peat bogs.  So, it cannot be assumed that all such artifacts disappeared from the archaeological record, as was first believed when early European archaeologists, speculated that wooden billets were used, but then disappeared from the archaeological record. 

AncientTech

  • Guest
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #157 on: October 18, 2015, 09:02:34 am »
Arrowmakers toolkit documented from the Madisonville site:




Offline iowabow

  • member
  • Member
  • Posts: 4,722
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #158 on: October 18, 2015, 09:13:34 am »
Here is a picture of the pit. The flint, antler and hammer stone lift out over night still have frost on them. First point completed.
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline Outbackbob48

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,752
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #159 on: October 18, 2015, 11:14:43 am »
John, good thing you didn't leave your tools out here Nw. Penna :( :o   Bob

Offline iowabow

  • member
  • Member
  • Posts: 4,722
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #160 on: October 18, 2015, 12:44:25 pm »
Bob looks like you have a beautiful piece of land there. That looks cold for sure.
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline Hummingbird Point

  • Member
  • Posts: 147
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #161 on: October 18, 2015, 02:07:47 pm »
Zuma,

No, no, I was referring to you cutting cane for dart shafts.  I assure you you looked very manly doing it and several of the ladies in the village took notice.

Ben,

I have been doing direct percussion by antler for the past year like this:

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/60533/Antler-hammers

My approach to figuring things out is differnet than yours.  I don't put much stock in either the archaeology or the post contact (often very post contact) accounts because I think way too much information is missing.  I think it is like trying to understand the forest from too few trees.

Rather my approach is this:   We are talking about "fully modern" humans here, people with equal intelligence to us, that had tens of thousands of years to figure out the most economical way to accomplish a technology, that while fairly complex, is not nearly as complex as many other things stone age peoples also figured out.  Let me draw an analogy:  There is a discussion here about the Spanish Diggings, a quarry where quartzite was dug out of pits in Wyoming.  Similar pits have been found around D.C where quartzite cobbles where extracted, and stone age people in England were digging something like 12 feet down to get at the the "floor stone", the highest quality flint.  Without ever seeing any of the tools from a dig, and without any eyewitness accounts, I can tell you the primary tool used and what it was made of with a high level of confidence.  They used a pick.  Why?  Because a pick is a really good tool for digging and prying rocks out of dirt, and these were all groups of smart humans, so they would figure that out.  The picks were made of elk antler at the two American sites and Red Deer antler in England.  I can reasonably surmise this because antler of those types was available to the respective groups, and the material is the most economical choice because it has the right strength and durability, comes in big enough pieces, and is naturally pick shaped.

Here's how I apply that thinking to percussion knapping tools, hammer stones first:  They make sense early on, being very efficient for large mass reduction, and save wear and tear on valuable antler tools.  But they very quickly loose that efficiency. As you note, they are very hard to learn to master for use in later stage work.  As you note, you have to compensate for the tool, such as by "torquing" the preform.  That is backwards from how humans use tools.  We don't compensate for the tool, we built the tool to compensate for us.  I can't stress this point highly enough.  Very few modern knappers take the time to master doing later stages of bifacial reduction with hammer stones not because they are lazy, but because they are just as smart as their stone age ancestors.  Or consider it another way:  Billions of human brains over tens of thousands of years of bifacial knapping didn't get past doing the lion's share of the work by banging one rock against another? (That is meant a bit tongue-in-cheek.)

As to direct percussion by antler:  It works.  Really, really well.  It is very efficient.  There is something nearly magical about how antler will grab the fine edge of a piece of "flint" and peel off long flakes.   There are many species of deer, inhabiting many habitat types.  In what is either intelligent design, or some really good luck, these deer drop their antler on the ground and grow new ones every year.  Any smart human can very easily connect the dots and see that if you hit flint with antler, good things happen.  Your objection to the antler billet is that you don't see it  in the archaeological collections.  My (halfway) objection is that, like hammer stones, it is too primitive, and still involves too much of the user compensating for the tool, instead of the other way around.  So I would say that if you know antler making rapid contact with flint produces the results you want, then it is just a matter of building the tool around the antler.  In a sense, it is like the copper bopper.  There is just one thin layer of copper on the end, with the rest of tool built so a human hand can efficiently deliver the copper to the flint.

But I must stress I am not trying to convert anyone to my radical methods.  I have been trying to avoid mentioning them at all so as not to side track the discussion.  Rather, I am trying to explain my thought process in trying to work out an "abo" toolkit.  I am very interested in alternate methods.  I would very much like to try the method you kind of described, with striking from the side, and pulling off the flake.  I think you are on to something there and I think it may fill in some of the holes I have found in my own process.  If you would be willing describe the process in more detail, perhaps with pictures or (if I can dream big), video, whether that be here, at another site or privately, I would deeply appreciate it.

Thanks,

Keith

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #162 on: October 18, 2015, 02:23:59 pm »
Zuma,
Are there any Clovis site that you believe are not the result of some dubious effort by some dubious and unscrupulous people.  You got
Me wondering if there is anything that can be believed about archeology.
Steve
LOL Steve,
Yes, there are plenty. Bare in mind what I am saying is about hyped up
Clovis cashes. As opposed to Clovis camps and village sites that are
statisfied and dug by Universities etc. and not (book and artifact sellers).
The Vale Site, The Minisink Site, The Gault Site, Blackwater Draw,
Naco to name a few. What do you think about Over Atlantic Ice now?
Did you read Eren et al?
Zuma

Steve did you some how overlook these answers and questions? :-\
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline caveman2533

  • Member
  • Posts: 640
  • Steve Nissly
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #163 on: October 18, 2015, 07:15:50 pm »
No I got it. still mulling a response. Not enough free time. :)

AncientTech

  • Guest
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #164 on: October 18, 2015, 08:48:04 pm »
Zuma,

No, no, I was referring to you cutting cane for dart shafts.  I assure you you looked very manly doing it and several of the ladies in the village took notice.

Ben,

I have been doing direct percussion by antler for the past year like this:

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/60533/Antler-hammers

My approach to figuring things out is differnet than yours.  I don't put much stock in either the archaeology or the post contact (often very post contact) accounts because I think way too much information is missing.  I think it is like trying to understand the forest from too few trees.

Rather my approach is this:   We are talking about "fully modern" humans here, people with equal intelligence to us, that had tens of thousands of years to figure out the most economical way to accomplish a technology, that while fairly complex, is not nearly as complex as many other things stone age peoples also figured out.  Let me draw an analogy:  There is a discussion here about the Spanish Diggings, a quarry where quartzite was dug out of pits in Wyoming.  Similar pits have been found around D.C where quartzite cobbles where extracted, and stone age people in England were digging something like 12 feet down to get at the the "floor stone", the highest quality flint.  Without ever seeing any of the tools from a dig, and without any eyewitness accounts, I can tell you the primary tool used and what it was made of with a high level of confidence.  They used a pick.  Why?  Because a pick is a really good tool for digging and prying rocks out of dirt, and these were all groups of smart humans, so they would figure that out.  The picks were made of elk antler at the two American sites and Red Deer antler in England.  I can reasonably surmise this because antler of those types was available to the respective groups, and the material is the most economical choice because it has the right strength and durability, comes in big enough pieces, and is naturally pick shaped.

Here's how I apply that thinking to percussion knapping tools, hammer stones first:  They make sense early on, being very efficient for large mass reduction, and save wear and tear on valuable antler tools.  But they very quickly loose that efficiency. As you note, they are very hard to learn to master for use in later stage work.   Very few modern knappers take the time to master doing later stages of bifacial reduction As you note, you have to compensate for the tool, such as by "torquing" the preform.  That is backwards from how humans use tools.  We don't compensate for the tool, we built the tool to compensate for us.  I can't stress this point highly enough. with hammer stones not because they are lazy, but because they are just as smart as their stone age ancestors.  Or consider it another way:  Billions of human brains over tens of thousands of years of bifacial knapping didn't get past doing the lion's share of the work by banging one rock against another? (That is meant a bit tongue-in-cheek.)

As to direct percussion by antler:  It works.  Really, really well.  It is very efficient.  There is something nearly magical about how antler will grab the fine edge of a piece of "flint" and peel off long flakes.   There are many species of deer, inhabiting many habitat types.  In what is either intelligent design, or some really good luck, these deer drop their antler on the ground and grow new ones every year.  Any smart human can very easily connect the dots and see that if you hit flint with antler, good things happen.  Your objection to the antler billet is that you don't see it  in the archaeological collections.  My (halfway) objection is that, like hammer stones, it is too primitive, and still involves too much of the user compensating for the tool, instead of the other way around.  So I would say that if you know antler making rapid contact with flint produces the results you want, then it is just a matter of building the tool around the antler.  In a sense, it is like the copper bopper.  There is just one thin layer of copper on the end, with the rest of tool built so a human hand can efficiently deliver the copper to the flint.

But I must stress I am not trying to convert anyone to my radical methods.  I have been trying to avoid mentioning them at all so as not to side track the discussion.  Rather, I am trying to explain my thought process in trying to work out an "abo" toolkit.  I am very interested in alternate methods.  I would very much like to try the method you kind of described, with striking from the side, and pulling off the flake.  I think you are on to something there and I think it may fill in some of the holes I have found in my own process.  If you would be willing describe the process in more detail, perhaps with pictures or (if I can dream big), video, whether that be here, at another site or privately, I would deeply appreciate it.

Thanks,

Keith

Hello Keith,

Your approach is probably comparable to the use of the antler mallet, which was frequently hafted.  I also see value in any form of experimentation, because it helps a person learn about various attributes of flaking processes.  Also, when something does not work - or partially works - a person has to figure out why.

Here is some of my own experimental work, that does not necessarily have any tie to ancient knapping - maybe, maybe not.

Wooden direct percussion hand hammer:

       





Wooden indirect percussion coast to coast flake:





Clovis-like flaking made on anvil, but probably not Clovis, due to lack of outrépasse potential (2012):









I posted photos of the last round of flaking on Paleoplanet, asked if it looked Clovis, and got banned.  LOL!  Actually, it is not even Clovis.  Not a single one of the flakes could ever produce outrepasse traits.  You need something far more sophisticated to throw outrepasse with a flaker process like this. 

So, I stuck it out two and a half more years.  One day, I had an epiphany.  I was thinking about the characteristics of bipolar, in terms of signatures.  And, I was mentally comparing that to hard hammer overshot, in terms of signatures - since both produce long flakes.  And, I could not figure out what caused the break to turn, prior to reaching the opposite edge, as is found in true late stage Clovis outrepasse. 

Suddenly, I saw the answer.  It was like seeing through time, as if I had X-ray eyesight through time and space.  I actually saw the break happening from inside the break, if it makes any sense.  It was amazing.  And, it had nothing to do with either hard hammer overshot, or coast to coast bipolar.  It was something else.  So, I am certain that my experiment of 2012 was not accurate.  By the way, ever wonder why some bifacial flake scars are curved, and others are flat, when both are made via indirect percussion?  That is something that became apparent, in the midst of one failed experiment - jewels can come out of failure.  Lol!

Here is an update, that the experiments of 2012 could not produce:



Here is the far edge:



Removal:



That bad boy did not come from an experiment.  It came from an epiphany I had, based in all of the information that I have amassed in my head.  And, it ties in to ethnographic data, too. 

"I don't put much stock in either the archaeology or the post contact (often very post contact) accounts because I think way too much information is missing."

The problem is not that we have information missing.  The problem is that we do not understand what we got.  The theories of flintknapping were mostly created before the evidence from the Americas was ever known, much less understood.  And, once people finally started looking at the evidence, through all of the theories, it never made any sense.  In a nutshell, the theories concocted in Europe are not necessarily applicable, in the Americas.  I know that people will hang on to them, until the death.  But, they will never be able to take simple tools - like a deer tine - and show the awesome flaking that I just showed, with Europe's theories.

"I think it is like trying to understand the forest from too few trees."

Museums, and universities, are chock full of evidence that is going unrecognized.  The known evidence does not conform to well circulated theories, like the antler baton theory.  Since the time of Crabtree, it looks like people stopped trying to tackle the evidence, for the most part. 

"Rather my approach is this:   We are talking about "fully modern" humans here, people with equal intelligence to us, that had tens of thousands of years to figure out the most economical way to accomplish a technology, that while fairly complex, is not nearly as complex as many other things stone age peoples also figured out."

It does not look like people "figured it out", here.  It looks like the First Americans arrived here with lithic traditions intact.  And, it looks like they were passed down, from father to son, for millennia.  The pattern is so deeply ingrained, it can be seen on both continents.  The fluted fishtail points of South America, encompass a coastal distance of about 22,000 miles, or maybe more.  And, the fluted Clovis, and Clovis-like points of North America span all lower 48 states, parts of Canada, and are even found at a relatively late date in Alaska.  Similarly, it has been reported that the paleoindian blade/core traditions of South America appear to be the same as the Clovis blade/core traditions of North America. 

Since the languages of both continents contain common peculiar linguistic features, known as "pan-Americanisms", and both continents displayed fluting technology, and Clovis type blade core technology, at a very early date, it could be argued that the impact of the arrival of the First Americans was in the dispersion of common lithic knowledge, and language(s). 

Also, if you track the spread of the Western Uto-Aztecan dialect, from central Mexico, throughout the west, and up into the Great Basin, what can be seen is that this spread approximates the spread of early paleoindian point types, in the west.  Yet, after the advent of the archaic, these people were hardly moving, at all.  Again, one can see a common source for language, and a common lithic technology - Clovis, at the roots of western Uto-Aztecan history. 

The idea that people made up flintknapping, in the Americas, over thousand of years, is probably a mistaken idea (one that I used to believe, myself).  I appears to be the result of an inherited culture, along with the presumed use of the atlatl, and the presumed companionship of hunting dogs.  The reason that lithic end products would have looked different in the archaic era, would have to do with different end goals, and major restrictions on access to high grade materials, due to a lack of mobility.  But, just because end types change, does not necessarily mean that technology changed.  A change in end types does not necessarily mean a change in technology, as some may assume.

"As you note, you have to compensate for the tool, such as by "torquing" the preform.  That is backwards from how humans use tools.  We don't compensate for the tool, we built the tool to compensate for us.  I can't stress this point highly enough."

Right.  For example, we do not make the screw adapt to the screwdriver.  The screwdriver is optimally designed to remove screws.  The same is also true of bolts, and wrenches.  We do not adapt the bolt to the wrench, to make the wrench work. 

But, do you know what the flaw is with this perspective?  The modern person is looking at "tools" the way we look at tools of the modern Industrial Revolution.  Flintknapping is a DYNAMIC process, with many elements - not just the tool.  This is where most all knappers take a wrong turn, and fail to recognize the evidence, even when it is under their noses.   

How many other people can make outrepasse with a common deer tine?  I can, and have done so many times.  Yet, the actual process involves the integration of three flaking processes, into a single process, as was recorded over a hundred years ago.  Yet, if I handed a hundred knappers the very same "tool", I do not believe that one of them could use it to create outrepasse, unless they had specialized knowledge.  And, that knowledge pertains to a fairly dynamic process.

The "tool A creates effect B" line of thinking works wonderful in factories, automotive assembly lines, machine shops, etc.  But, harboring this outlook makes it far harder to understand the dynamic processes of Native American flintknapping.  The only cure for this is immersion in the right type of evidence.

"As to direct percussion by antler:  It works.  Really, really well.  It is very efficient.  There is something nearly magical about how antler will grab the fine edge of a piece of "flint" and peel off long flakes."

The late Philip Churchill - who was one of the best replicators in the world - told me that the reason that modern knappers do not use antler is because they cannot get the flake scars to look authentic enough.  For this reason, the best replicators use copper, not antler.  I think that Woody Blackwell is living proof that there must be something wrong with the antler baton theory.  On top of that, the early replicators, like Bordes, and Crabtree, used massive clubs, while also developing heat treating.  In South America, there is no heavy antler.  The largest cervid, in South America, is a deer similar to a white tail deer.  They do not have elk, or moose, in South America, except those which have been imported.  Meanwhile, the lithic traditions continued unabated, in South America, from the moment of colonization. 

Actually, the description you give of antler being used to flake flint is also true of antler that is used in indirect percussion.  In fact, with regard to "pitching tools", where the flaker is used in conjunction with a stone hammer, the mass of the percussor is SEPARATE from the flaking tool.  In other words, if the flaking tool weighs four ounces, but the percussor weighs a pound, then which process should generate greater force?  The one in which a four ounce flaker is used to strike the stone, directly?  Or, the one in which a one pound stone percussor is used to strike the biface indirectly, via the four ounce flaker?  The latter process should be roughly for times more powerful, since the hammerstone weight is four times heavier than the flaker weight.  But, if a person factors in the possibility of increasing the force, while reducing shock (effect of intermediate object), then one might be able to apply ten times more force, while employing an indirect strike. 

Some of the baton users can expound upon contact time, as being a contributor to flake length.  Is it possible that indirect percussion might actually involve longer contact times, thus producing longer flakes?  Look at the length of the last tine-made flake I showed.  It is a monster.  And, it is raw stone - the real deal.  I bet the contact time was fairly long, between when the flaker was struck, and the flake detached. 

As far as I can tell, the flintknapping community has never made a fair study of Native American pitching tools, while theories born in England seem to almost get a free pass.  The loss is no one else's but ours.

"Your objection to the antler billet is that you don't see it  in the archaeological collections.  My (halfway) objection is that, like hammer stones, it is too primitive, and still involves too much of the user compensating for the tool, instead of the other way around.  So I would say that if you know antler making rapid contact with flint produces the results you want, then it is just a matter of building the tool around the antler."

So, we might actually agree.  Ha ha.  Are you advocating the antler hammer over the antler flintknapping baton?  Well, it looks like the weight of history is on your side, at least regarding the use of antler hammers.  I believe that the Eskimo used heavy reindeer hammers to spall stone.  Also, there are scores of examples of hafted antler hammers, that had holes drilled in the middle.  I have long speculated about such hammers.  In early ethnographic literature, they are called "flintknapping hammers", or "antler mallets".  Also, I believe that they were used as trimmers.  The large preform would be laid on a buckskin pad, on an anvil.  And, the knapper would strike around the edges of the preform.  I have myself used hammers before, in knapping. What I ran into is that the inside tends to wear off much faster than the rest of the antler. For this reason, I have wondered whether the hammers were actually used in indirect percussion - antler on antler.  If so, the tools would probably never wear out. 

I think that your experiments could be really helpful, in better understanding this subject.  Don't worry about what other people think.  In a hundred years, we will all be gone.  But, a real development might help someone in the future.

Ben