Author Topic: The heart of the matter  (Read 12571 times)

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AncientTech

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2015, 01:10:57 pm »
The heart of the matter is that before there were finished points, there was flakes and flake scars.  And, before there were flakes and flakes scars, there was flaking technologies. 

The heart of the matter is found in the flaking technologies, themselves - not in flakes and flake scars, and not in finished points.  The heart of the matter is found in the actual flaking technologies, that were used by people in the past.

Those who reject the study of flaking technologies reject the source of historic/prehistoric flakes, flake scars, and finished points.  That is the heart of the matter.

As far as "notched flakers" are concerned, 99.99% of antler flakers found in the New World archaeological record, appear to be unnotched.  There is probably a less than 1% exception, though, because at least one of the tribes, in the Northwest, appears to have used a notched tine flaker, at some point, during the historical era.

Also, in working obsidian, Ishi's explanation for his preference of a steel tine flaker, over an antler flaker, may just shed some light on why not many full sized tine pressure flakers are seen, in the archaeological record, in spite of the fact that there photos of historical Indians demonstrating pressure "re-touch", with said flakers.  For those who think this through, the question that out to be raised is whether "retouch" and "manufacture" are really the same thing.  And, if not, then were other types of pressure flakers used during manufacture?  Obviously, there is strong evidence of composite bit pressure flakers, being used throughout the historical era, and prehistoric era, across the continent. 

Regarding your example of a copper bobber outré passé flake, in presumably heat treated chert, I can make almost the identical flake, in raw chert, with a hammerstone:







Plus small initiation:



If a person knows the right hammerstone technique, then he can make these types of hard hammer outrepasse flakes, all day long.

But, hammerstone percussion is not necessarily the same thing as late stage thinning, in raw materials. 

Also, the same unnotched deer tine that is used to create outrepasse flaking/coast to coast flaking is the very same unnotched deer tine that can create other types of flaking, such as the central rippling seen on the Sweetwater biface.  Here is the proof:

Central Rippling in Raw chert:





Here is a shot showing central rippling being produced:



Here is from the back edge:



Here is after removal:



and,



Here are the central ripples on the Sweetwater Biface:



Still, the same technology that produced central rippling in raw chert, also produced the following overshot flaking, in raw materials:









Same process - Totally different outcomes.  One process - different results. 

So, I can show that a single process can create a range of mid-late stage flaking effects, in raw materials.  And, I can carry out the process in areas where other tools will not reach. 

So, why would Clovis knappers, and paleoindian knappers, "reinvent" flintknapping, if a single technology can produce an array of effects?  Outrepasse, coast to coast, fluting, central rippling, trimming, flaking, etc?     

Also, there is no mystery to this.  The evidence was presented to many hundreds of people in the flintknapping community, in the fall of 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2014.  Steve Nissly and his protégés can attest to this. 

So, for all of the dozens of people who demanded to see "proof", you can see the tool - a simple unnotched flaker.  You can see the materials - a full range of uncooked stone.  And, you can see the results - outrepasse, centralized rippling, coast to coast, fluting, plus the more generic forms of flaking. 

Now, there is no more mystery. 

   

   

 

Offline Zuma

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2015, 03:23:10 pm »
"Now, there is no more mystery.  "

There never was any. The Gault debitage contains at best 12 percent
overshot. A mistake percentage imo.
Please post your confirmed statistics.
thanks Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline mullet

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2015, 10:17:02 pm »
More pictures of rocks an flakes ::)

This is kinda like the movie the "Shining", He's back! ???
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline caveman2533

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2015, 12:17:41 am »
Yeah I am getting a little bit tired of being called out. I have never professed to being some kind of expert. far from it, but you still have shown us nothing new. I can do everything you described as using the same process with an antler billet, a hammerstone, a wooden billet or a copper billet. so I still don't get your point.

"if a single technology can produce an array of effects?  Outrepasse, coast to coast, fluting, central rippling, trimming, flaking, etc?"   
   All this can be done with one of any  different tools on the same biface.  I think most of your argument is with yourself.


Offline bubby

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2015, 10:04:29 am »
Why would they reinvent as you say, the same reason some culture's made d bows with self back wood and some made highly complex composite bows, because thats how they did it
Why bring up something like ishi as a referance just in passing and not post a quote of his reasons to explain the connection
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 01:55:43 pm by bubby »
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
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Offline Ghost Knapper

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2015, 06:19:40 pm »
You contest that a single process cam create all of those scar patterns, overshoots, etc. But for all I know you are using whatever technique/tool you wish so that you can end up with a staged photo to support your argument.

While in a photo it many be hard to show a knapping process no attempt has been shown to connect the photos posted so far to the process you contest is the method used by native knappers.

I have seen central rippling in a biface that was so thin you could read through it (ok well maybe not) but still super thin and it was all done with a short solid copper billet. Just as there are many styles of points/blades/knives etc. there were probably many techniques/process's used to create stone tools throughout all of history.

P.S. Auto correct kept changing "knapping" to "snapping", don't think I am going to try either today. :)

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2015, 06:50:27 pm »
Ghost Snapper, I hate auto-correct, too.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline caveman2533

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2015, 08:30:57 pm »
Ghost Snapper, I hate auto-correct, too.
  :) LOL

JacksonCash

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2015, 09:26:09 pm »
Okay, I've been trying to follow all of this, with very little knowledge of knapping at all. My wife has done a fair share of knapping, and thought the discussion may interest her, but I've been unable to relay to her what is actually going on. So, let us take a moment and try to clear a few things up.
  • AncientTech has proposed that he(and others?) has discovered a method to produce certain desired results for a given flake
  • The above method relys on only one tool (Unnotched antler tine?)
  • This idea has some interest, though people want to see the process, not just the results

There has been a discussion of many tools, and many flake types. I guess I'm just trying to understand what the argument is - is it that prehistoric peoples used only antler tines and everything else has been invented? Is it that Tech can create any given flake type at will with any given tool?

Or is the answer, as was once said, blowin' in the wind?

Offline mullet

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2015, 09:32:47 pm »
I'd go with Blowing somewhere? The Dude has a serious problem with getting to the point.
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline bubby

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2015, 10:14:44 pm »
Not only problems getting to the point, but the few finished points he posted are less than impressive, iowabow is all abo all the time and i have some of his work and it is impressive
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2015, 10:22:03 pm »
Not only problems getting to the point, but the few finished points he posted are less than impressive, iowabow is all abo all the time and i have some of his work and it is impressive

Yeah, but he has a cherished copper turkey call!
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Stringman

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2015, 10:34:30 pm »
With respect to John and his remarkable ABO talents. This has nothing to do with ABO vs modern. This is about one guy stirring the pot and claiming we're all doin it wrong.

Bottom line is: I don't much care. Admittedly, I still have a lot to learn, but clearly he ain't the teachin kind, so I'll get my lessons elsewhere. I enjoy hittin rock to make a variety of point styles FOR FUN!! Some days I play with abo tools. Other days I use copper. The rest of this academia is on the left side of useless to me. In the beginning I was interested in what he had to say. No longer..

Offline Chippintuff

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Re: The heart of the matter
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2015, 11:22:03 pm »
Since Ben seems to be unable to state his contention clearly, I will attempt to lay it out. He has been riding this wagon for a few years but manages to stay in a fog so that it is hard to know what to rebut. I have been seeing his posts on some other forums for a few years, and they are all just alike. Ben seems to have a need to "prove" that he is the only person ever to figure out how the Native Americans made stone tools. He claims that all modern American knappers have followed the lead of a few experimental knappers who were using the wrong tools the wrong way and getting results unlike what the Native Americans made. He contends that all of us unauthentic knappers should surrender our practice and deem him king of the knapping business. It is a position of pure arrogance. He claims that in archaeological finds there are no tools like the ones modern knappers use, and the ones that have been found are short (perhaps 2-3 inch) sections of antler, and in studying the oldest records about how the Native Americans knapped, they never used methods like the ones modern American knappers use. He has made a huge discovery of their method and needs to proclaim the knapping truth to the world and scorn all of us modern hobbyists. Did I nail it Ben?

WA