Author Topic: Warbow myth?  (Read 37721 times)

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Offline Skeaterbait

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2008, 01:14:22 pm »
Another 2 cents on the myth. 4 fingers back then might not be as big as most people think, if I recall from my history lessons (which are nearly history themselves) the average height of a man back then was considerabley less than now, by roughly a foot. So it stands to reason that the fingers would be much smaller as well. Albeit, we're not talking half the size but weight measurements would not have altered as the other. A heavy weighted bow back then is the same as a heavy weighted bow now but relational measurements would differ.

Thoughts?

Offline markinengland

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2008, 02:19:33 pm »
Finger and hand sizes do not generally depend on height and stay failry constant. Short people with fat fingers have much the same hand size as tall people with fat fingers.
There is good evidence that people from some ages were as tall or taller than the current average.

Offline Loki

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2008, 02:50:21 pm »
Aye it's a Myth that people in the middleage were shorter than the current average  ;D.
Durham,England

Offline Skeaterbait

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2008, 05:25:47 pm »
Don't go throwin facts at me, I was trying to sound smart.   ;D

Rod

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2008, 07:20:09 am »
Bear in mind that in many respects Geraldus has the reputation of not being the most reliable witness and that his comment is essentially a repetition of hearsay.
Having said that, has anyone here actually shot into solid oak? I have at Sherwood where I taught archery and I can only take this report seriously if the door was either in poor condition and not as thick as reported.
Rod.

SimonUK

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2008, 03:13:13 pm »
I wonder whether the English exagerated the story. They probably had to explain why they were being thrashed by the Welsh.

Offline deerhunter97370

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2008, 04:50:21 am »
Thanks guys for all the info on this. Rod I put a field point an inch and a haft into a probly pine 4x4 post with a 50# bow. About three years ago. Thats the closesed I come. But I bought  3  2" x 12" red oak boards from a local hardware store and will start penatration test soon, and increase in bow weight and arrow size as time goes on and as I make stronger bows. I wiil post Pics when I start. Joel
Always be ready to: Preach, Pray, or Die. John Wesley

Rod

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2008, 12:06:53 pm »
I  shot a field point into a live mature oak tree and it didn't even go in as far as the shaft but it was very difficult to get out again.
I can see a heavy bodkin getting quite good penetration on a plank that is very dry, even splitting the wood if the grain orientation permits. But clean penetration of 4" of sound oak sounds to me like poetic licence.
If it was so, those shafts would still be in there, you would not get them out short of destroying the door.
Rod.

Offline outcaste

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2008, 01:53:23 pm »
I have shot a needle bodkin into a wooden fencing pole with a penertration of over 2 1/2 inches. This was shot from an 120lb ELB and thanks to the man who dug it out with his rondel!

Outcaste

nick1346

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2008, 05:02:43 pm »
Another 2 cents on the myth. 4 fingers back then might not be as big as most people think, if I recall from my history lessons (which are nearly history themselves) the average height of a man back then was considerabley less than now, by roughly a foot. So it stands to reason that the fingers would be much smaller as well. Albeit, we're not talking half the size but weight measurements would not have altered as the other. A heavy weighted bow back then is the same as a heavy weighted bow now but relational measurements would differ.

Thoughts?

Interesting thought but again another myth, hieghts in the middle ages where comparable to today, the average height now is only about one inch more than it was then. They had a very good diet, when the crops didn't fail :D

The qoute has probably been mistranslated by historians with no idea about the penetrative powers of a bow. It's most likely that the door was that thick and the arrows penetrated to a depth  so  that they couldn't get the buggers out agian, that has been interpreted that the arrows went right the way through which is extremely unlikely.

skerm

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2008, 05:08:20 am »
Interesting thought but again another myth, hieghts in the middle ages where comparable to today, the average height now is only about one inch more than it was then. They had a very good diet, when the crops didn't fail :D

I don't really believe that. In the place where I live is the world's largest collection of historical arms and armours (http://www.zeughaus.at, from 24th of February you will be able to see a number of their exhibits including a really beautiful parade armour in the Cleveland Museum of Art if that is anywhere near your place) and the armours that they have there just don't fit a man of today's average size. The breast plates are way too small and only teenagers and some women can lower the nose protectors when wearing a helmet because otherwise the heads are too big for the helmets (I tried that myself last sunday..). The guide said that while the rich could have been about our size, the majority had a much smaller built and he said that the main reason was malnutrition.
I have also visited a number of countrymen houses from the 16th and 17th century and they also don't appear to be have been built for 69" people. You have to take care not to bump your head when walking through a door and the beds were so short you would hardly believe they were made for adults.

nick1346

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2008, 07:23:31 am »
Interesting thought but again another myth, hieghts in the middle ages where comparable to today, the average height now is only about one inch more than it was then. They had a very good diet, when the crops didn't fail :D

I don't really believe that. In the place where I live is the world's largest collection of historical arms and armours (http://www.zeughaus.at, from 24th of February you will be able to see a number of their exhibits including a really beautiful parade armour in the Cleveland Museum of Art if that is anywhere near your place) and the armours that they have there just don't fit a man of today's average size. The breast plates are way too small and only teenagers and some women can lower the nose protectors when wearing a helmet because otherwise the heads are too big for the helmets (I tried that myself last sunday..). The guide said that while the rich could have been about our size, the majority had a much smaller built and he said that the main reason was malnutrition.
I have also visited a number of countrymen houses from the 16th and 17th century and they also don't appear to be have been built for 69" people. You have to take care not to bump your head when walking through a door and the beds were so short you would hardly believe they were made for adults.


We tend to think these days of a linear increase in just about everything, kids these days seem to be bigger and cars are faster than they were twenty years ago. Over the last 100years there has been a noticable increase in height, I'm gob smacked at how tall a lot of 18 year olds seem to be these days most seem to over 6ft tall. But as with most things it's the extremes you notice.

Height throughout history has gone through many fluctuations depending on nutrition and population density. Studies of the skeletons found on the Mary Rose show average height was 5'8" and studies from 14th Century skeletons in Poland give the same average. It is interesting to note that it is the same average height as found amongst men in Australia today, in the uk I believe it is very slightly higher.

As for houses, doorways are no indication of how tall a man is, it is more an indicator of his wealth. A poor man could afford a smaller place and to heat it cost money and effort, bigger doors led to more heat loss, higher ceilings meant it took longer to heat. My wifes sister lives in an early 15th century house, the original cieling levels can be easily seen and they are much higher than those there today. Does that imply that the original owners where all over 6' 6", no of course not. It merely shows that it was a wealthy household and could afford a large spacious house.

It is also known that heights dropped from the 1700's onwards as society changed from a rural to urban based one, whilst it is true that an average man today would stand higher than someone in an industrial revolution mill it is also true that a 15th Century male would on average look down on that mill worker.

I have a good friend who is studing for his phd in medieval history, specialising in military defences and as part of that he worked at the Royal Armouries, trying telling him that everyone in the medieval days was 5' 2". Sorry that sounds flipant. He illustrated the point by showing me a photo of a collection of armour in I believe Italy. Looking at it it looked odd, one suit of armour was huge and all the others looked small, he then pointed out that most of the smaller suits would be worn by men standing about 5' 10" which put the larger suit at about 6' 6" :o

skerm

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2008, 10:02:55 am »
I have been thinking about it since I wrote it, well, besides doing my day job which required the greater part of my attention ;) I fell for something that I frequently found annoying in discussions or books, that is generalizing. You already get into trouble when you say something along the lines of "in the middle ages this and that" because the time span is just too large. I should have said something more like judging by the armour (which was made in 3 sizes, as a "drafted" peasant you were apparently lucky to be supplied one that fits) the average height of the people in Styria was smaller than that of today.

6'6" is quite a height, if you'd put on one of the Zeughaus armours you'd be wearing a crop top, provided you are thin enough to fit in width :D
Of course they have larger armours, too, mainly the more expensive decorated ones, but I can't tell you any dimensions or how broad one could be to fit in with thick clothing underneath.

Offline Loki

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2008, 03:05:05 pm »
Quote
I don't really believe that. In the place where I live is the world's largest collection of historical arms and armours (http://www.zeughaus.at, from 24th of February you will be able to see a number of their exhibits including a really beautiful parade armour in the Cleveland Museum of Art if that is anywhere near your place) and the armours that they have there just don't fit a man of today's average size. The breast plates are way too small and only teenagers and some women can lower the nose protectors when wearing a helmet because otherwise the heads are too big for the helmets (I tried that myself last sunday..). The guide said that while the rich could have been about our size, the majority had a much smaller built and he said that the main reason was malnutrition.
I have also visited a number of countrymen houses from the 16th and 17th century and they also don't appear to be have been built for 69" people. You have to take care not to bump your head when walking through a door and the beds were so short you would hardly believe they were made for adults.

I live near Cleveland but have never heard of this museum? is it in Cleveland in the North East of England or Cleveland in America?

Test's on Archer's bones have proved that they had quite a good diet,far better than what we eat today infact,lot's of vegetable's and grain's for those bugger's,microwave meals and processed meat are a far worse diet.A lot of old houses in England have low ceiling's but they've also had the floor's raised so you cant really use that as an example.Same goes for the Ship's of the Line (Warships),the sailor's werent midget's but they had to stoop when in the gundeck,that's life i'm afraid it's a warship not a cruiser! sailor's comfort isnt a factor when designing the ships.
Ever heard the expression "you cant swing a cat in here" the cat isnt a moggy it's a cat of nine tails'a Royal Navy Whip used for disciplining the men.There was no room to lash the men under the deck so they went up top to get their back's opened.
Andy
Durham,England

skerm

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Re: Warbow myth?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2008, 03:14:24 am »
It is the one in the US. I didn't know there was a Cleveland in the UK, but bearing in mind that there are numerous cities called London there I should not be surprised ;D
The link to the exhibition is [url]http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/armsarmor/html/index.html[url], it is called Arms and Armor from Imperial Austria (click Exhibition Highlights and look at the topmost armor, what a masterpiece...).

Quote
A lot of old houses in England have low ceiling's but they've also had the floor's raised so you cant really use that as an example.

I don't really know about that, but from what I saw I'd say the floors were still original. The ceilings were low, but high enough for me (6' tall) to walk upright. This topic is really starting to interest me, I think I need to go to this museum again and ask some questions. The rooms were pretty dark because there were few and small windows. Small windows and doors make sense regarding keeping it warm. On the other hand the houses there had only one big oven in the kitchen so the other rooms were not heated. Unfortunately the museum is closed during winter, because now would be a good time to go and find out what it's like in the unheated parts of those houses. There are still the small beds, maybe people slept with their legs tucked in? I have no idea :)

I do not doubt that the archers had a healthier diet than the average person today, no big deal given the sh*t people are happily eating.