an interesting lesson

[sleek]

So if you mess with osage long enough you will encountered osage with bark over heartwood and no sapwood inbetween. Just got a bow of it to floor bending and it blew up with little pressure.  The back had no strength at all. Only guess I got is the lack of sap is a sign of a damaged wood and is a no go.

[sleek]

Rats, this was meant for bows thread. Someone please move it?

[paulsemp]

not true. I've cut lots of dead standing with no sap wood
at all and it makes a fine bow. but I also go down a couple rings for the back

[PEARL DRUMS]

I agree with Paul.

[E. Jensen]

That's weird.  How can a tree not have sapwood?  Can it convert after the tree dies?

[PEARL DRUMS]

It rots off as soon as the bark is gone and its exposed. That's why we peel it off and get to that golden heartwood! Some folks ask why we do that, that answer seems obvious to me.

[Josh B]

That's weird.  How can a tree not have sapwood?  Can it convert after the tree dies?

It happens with walnut as well.  If the roots are intact, the tree will continue to pull moisture from the ground even though  the tree is dead.  The chemical compounds that convert sapwood to heartwood continue to be drawn from the roots and changing the sapwood to heartwood.  Since the tree (tree's cambium to be more exact) is dead, no more sapwood is being produced.  So you end up with heartwood right under the bark.  However those first few rings are suspect as they have stood there as sapwood for several yrs before it converted to heartwood.  Sometimes it's fine, sometimes you get what Sleek found. Josh

[crooketarrow]

  Sorry BUT I've been cutting OSAGE FOR PUSHING 25 YEARS. There's just no way anyones saw sapwood turn to hard wood.  I seen sapwood rotted away only to leave the hard wood. Dos'nt matter if it's alive or standing dead When you cut it.

 I once cut 9 tree's in a fence row had been dead for 10 years. I cut 5 or 6 other trees that were standing dead.The bark fell off not with hard wood under it Tte sapwood was rotted away.I got 55 staves, I made unteen bows from them ,sold most. I have no complaints or have heard of any.

  If I remember right I even made 2 bows in the 70's from those staves. And I hary ever chace rings. The ring right under the bark is always the strongest.

Not that you can'nt chase a ring we all know that to well.

  I promiss you dead wood sells don't turn to anything but rotten dust.

   Here's another little tid bit unless the tree dies from fire or blight tree's die from the roots up. The top may look dead but it's not really 100% dead to the roots die first. But no matter the leanth it takes to die. Sapwood won't turn to hard wood.

 

[Josh B]

 
 I promiss you dead wood sells don't turn to anything but rotten dust.

   Here's another little tid bit unless the tree dies from fire or blight tree's die from the roots up. The top may look dead but it's not really 100% dead to the roots die first. But no matter the leanth it takes to die. Sapwood won't turn to hard wood.

If this were true, there would be no such thing as heartwood as the only living part is the cambium.  The wood itself, both sapwood and heartwood is dead.  I did not say this happened because the roots are still alive.  I said it happens because the roots are intact.  There is no organ or living function that pumps the water up the tree.  The structure of the wood fibers does that by a mechanical action , sort of.  The tree still draws moisture up the trunk after its dead.  If you've ever noticed the bright orange color of Osage roots, that is from the the same chemical compounds that create heartwood.  That compound is what protects the roots from fungus and other threats from the moist earth they are growing in.  This compound is drawn up with the moisture over time until eventually the sapwood is turned to heartwood.  Pretty cool how it all works really.  Josh

[sleek]

Maybe this helps. Half the stave had heartwood the other had sap. I split it in half so I had a stave with sap and one without. It was as if the sapwood just really got thin until it vanished. The wood without sap broke. I held a piece that popped off the back. It felt very light and brittle. Also had a hollow scratchy sound when rubbed or thumped. I heaved made a bow of the sapwood half yet.

[Josh B]

That sounds about right Sleek.  It's uncommon to find an entire tree like that.  Dead limbs with this anomaly are  a fairly common find though.  Usually the sapwood does rot off like Paul said.  I've cut hundreds upon hundreds of hedge posts since I was knee high to a grasshopper.  Long before I realized hedge was the mythical bow wood known as Osage orange and I have found no more than a dozen or so like that.  The coloration is usually pretty spectacular when this happens around home.  I wish I could find more of it.  I did find one about 3 yrs ago that I made a bow for my daughter out of.  It was only about 2"to 3" thick, but just beautiful wood.  This is the only pic that i have showing the belly of that one.  Josh

[E. Jensen]

The cambium is not the only living part of a tree.  The foliage is alive.  The phloem is alive.  And part of the sapwood is alive.  Without living sapwood, the tree could not conduct water.

I'll have to do more research but I find it hard to believe that a tree can continue drawing water long after it dies, because if it could still draw water, then it could still photosynthesize, etc, etc.  I would expect xylem cavitation shortly after death.

[JW_Halverson]

Capilary action draws water, or any other fluid, up into the trees. 

[Josh B]

Ah yes capillary action is the proper term, not mechanical.  As it turns out the outer layers of sapwood are indeed alive.  Long time since 9th grade science apparently.  My apologies.  However, the dead wood does continue to draw fluids through capillary action and necessarily so.  The tree has to maintain a high level of moisture content to prevent rot.  I don't remember exactly what the moisture levels are, but it seems to me that if the wood is in between 20% and 70% moisture content then that is the ideal range for fungus and other decay to go to work.  I may have quite a few of the facts mixed up, but the point is it is possible for the wood under the bark of a dead tree to turn to heartwood.  I know this not just in theory, but because I have harvested such trees.  Others have as well.  Josh

[paulsemp]

I have cut Osage where the bark is loose and the sapwood is rotted, and I have also cut Osage where the bark is very much so intact to straight up hardwood right underneath the bark. don't have any scientific proof nor the proper terms but I can tell you I have seen bark attached to hardwood therefore making me believe there is a very big difference between sap wood rot away and sapwood turned to hardwood. I have never cut a live Osage tree where there was no sapwood.  I am also a firm believer that when sapwood supposedly turns to hard wood I think that wood is no good. I always take off at least the first quarter to half inch of dead standing.