Author Topic: Wood Types And preformance  (Read 14750 times)

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Offline willie

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2015, 05:17:50 pm »
Badger-

I did not understand your last post too well.

In the case of a maple backed maple, are you saying that it is better than a self maple because two pieces glued together somehow average out the weaknesses in a single piece?

Doesn't the performance gain come from prestressing the lamination before and into the glue-up?

Willie

Offline Badger

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2015, 05:28:20 pm »
   Willie, I honestly don't know whay it works but there is definite benefits to at least one glueline. I am just guessing that gluing thin woods into shape damages the wood less or holds up better than shaping a self bow with heat or steam. I really don't know for sure why.

Offline half eye

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2015, 05:42:05 pm »
Arachnid,
       I have made both kinds that you mention in your original post, so I have no dog in the fight. It seems to me that everyone is overlooking the obvious. What I mean is either type of bow or wood used can make screamers as well as dogs.
       Learning to optimize what you have available is the key to good bows. If you have good wood learn to make self bows, if the wood is marginal learn to make laminates (sinew backed, sinew backed horn bellied, wood laminates, etc), if you want absolute speed and distance make 'em out of other materials all together. I think you would be surprised just how efficient of a bow can be made by someone who has worked with available material (or combination of materials) until they have mastered the type that fits the material they have.
      No type of wood or style of bow will survive bad bowyering.
Just one guys opinion however.
rich 

Offline joachimM

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2015, 07:37:06 pm »
Arachnid,
as I see it:
The type and species of wood you work can have a tremendous influence on performance of a certain bow design. The point that Tim Baker’s been making during many of his writings, however, is that you can make a good bow out of nearly every wood, if you take its particular properties into account (mostly density or specific gravity) to adjust the bow design to the wood.

Many people say that the differences within species are more important than among species, but I don’t buy that. A lot of this can be attributed to misinterpreting extreme values for actual variance among wood samples. It may be that you find crack willow with a SG of 0.70, but that will be extremely rare. 95% of crack willow will have a SG between 0.30 and 0.40. So the important differences among wood species stand for the majority of wood samples.
As a matter of fact, I performed an earlier an analysis on bow wood properties, which is independent of specific gravity. So if your sample of wood X has a low or a high SG is entirely irrelevant to the results shown there.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,50571.msg692410.html#msg692410
If you take the figure for (relative) back elongation (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=50571.0;attach=109230;image), you will see that some species withstand much more back elongation than others (how far you can bend it for a certain thickness). At the same time, those which tolerate less back elongation need more force to elongate that back. And both even out to a certain degree (samples parallel to the shown regression line can store about the same amount of energy at maximum strain), but that doesn’t mean you can just interchange woods for a particular design. For a same front shape, osage and yew can be made thicker and narrower than norway spruce or paper birch, as they can withstand much more back elongation.
Woods with low SG need wider limbs to yield the same mass of the working limb, hence energy storage capacity, and therefore draw weight.
In the graph I made, the more you go right, the longer or thinner the bow should be made (both are completely interchangeable: make a bow 2 times longer, it will have eight times the draw weight. Make it two times thicker, it will also have eight times the draw weight). But at the end of the day, most woods can be utilized to yield bows shooting 170 fps at 10 gpp. TBB4 is loaded with such examples. But don’t go taking a short osage recurve and try to fit a silver birch into that exact design (length, width, taper, thickness, etc.), cos it will break. Likewise, a design optimized for a silver birch will yield a sluggish bow if made out of osage.

As for adding a backing: take the same figure and take two extremely different backing materials: sinew will be way (really way) outside the figure on the top left (allowing extreme elongation; its value is c. 5.5 for relative stiffness, and 5% for elongation), flax or hemp will be on the top right (being very stiff; c. 38 for relative stiffness, and 1.8% for elongation). They have much better properties than wood for bows but from a very different perspective, both tweaking bow performance in a different way. Glass fibre, moreover, takes the best of both of them (c 28 for relative stiffness, and 4.9% for elongation). So it’s logic that backed bows should be able to outperform non-backed bows to some degree, and that best fiberglass bows should outshoot the best wood bows.

Still, there are numbers of unbacked bows that outperform backed bows, and lots of wood bows that outshoot fiberglass bows. Why? Because the particular bow design fitted the used materials better to optimize performance.


Offline vinemaplebows

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2015, 10:28:11 pm »
   Willie, I honestly don't know whay it works but there is definite benefits to at least one glueline. I am just guessing that gluing thin woods into shape damages the wood less or holds up better than shaping a self bow with heat or steam. I really don't know for sure why.

Badger, straight limbed, or glued in reflex?
Debating is an intellectual exchange of differing views...with no winners.

Offline Badger

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2015, 10:33:46 pm »
  Good question, I havent done any backed straight limbed.

Offline arachnid

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2015, 01:00:53 am »
Arachnid,
       I have made both kinds that you mention in your original post, so I have no dog in the fight. It seems to me that everyone is overlooking the obvious. What I mean is either type of bow or wood used can make screamers as well as dogs.
       Learning to optimize what you have available is the key to good bows. If you have good wood learn to make self bows, if the wood is marginal learn to make laminates (sinew backed, sinew backed horn bellied, wood laminates, etc), if you want absolute speed and distance make 'em out of other materials all together. I think you would be surprised just how efficient of a bow can be made by someone who has worked with available material (or combination of materials) until they have mastered the type that fits the material they have.
      No type of wood or style of bow will survive bad bowyering.
Just one guys opinion however.
rich

I never talked about bad bowyering (not that I consider myself a good bowyer...). It`s just a question I asked myself and wanted to hear the experienced guys` opinion.

Badger,
Does the "one glue line" (so called) rule applys to a straight pyramid bow (no reflex)? I have 2 white oak boards. Will gluing them together and then make a straight bow result in a better preforming bow the just a single board?

And another question to you all,
Since I only use my bow for stomp and target shooting, accuracy is the most imortant factor for me.
What are the best designs (in genral, of course) for an accurate bow (besides center-shot)? (and yes, I know good form and tuned arrows are critical, but I want to optimize all my equipment).

Dor

Offline vinemaplebows

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2015, 01:05:05 am »
A recurve like a glass bow would be my pick....ther's a reason they made them that way. :)
Debating is an intellectual exchange of differing views...with no winners.

Offline arachnid

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2015, 01:21:03 am »
Joachim, that is some great info! Thanks.

Offline adams89

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2015, 04:08:23 am »
joachim +1
Did you also measure the properties of bamboo as a backing??

Offline arachnid

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2015, 05:08:17 am »
Joachim, I read your post (data crunching)  and didn`t understand how to read the diagrams.
Can you explain plz?

blackhawk

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2015, 09:18:07 am »
Meh....the greatest factor is the dude holding the tools.  :-X

Offline joachimM

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2015, 09:25:42 am »
Joachim, I read your post (data crunching)  and didn`t understand how to read the diagrams.
Can you explain plz?

The more left on the graph, the less force is required to bend.
The more up the further you can bend it without breaking.
As far as wood is concerned it seems you cannot have both, but some are still better for both properties than other.

Offline arachnid

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2015, 11:09:48 am »
Meh....the greatest factor is the dude holding the tools.  :-X

+1000 :)

Offline crooketarrow

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Re: Wood Types And preformance
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2015, 11:24:38 am »
 Crooket arrow told me there a bow in just about any piece of wood. If you want to take the time to let it out. I've found out that's very true.

 A lot of hard wood and white woods makes a bow. But hands down on the east coast it's OSAGE. You can mess and mess up and you'll still get a bow from it.

  On west coast it's yew all the way.

  My 3 favorite woods.
 OSAGE
 HICKORY
 YEW

  I put YEW last because I've only made 6 yew bows. The other 2 are at my finger tips.
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