Dealing with dogwood.

[Springbuck]

I found a great patch of red osier and have cut 50 plus shafts.  But, after hearing so much good about this stuff, I'm struggling to get good results.  I have made an odd experimental arrow from it, but I was usually successful.

  I am certain of the ID, right down to the little white flowers,  but it seems much weaker, and harder to straighten than I expected.  It doesn't respond to hook straightening. It responds well to heat, but scorches and dries very fast, and it doesn't take much to make it really brittle.  The knots have just the tiniest kink right there, and it WON'T come out. Breaks every time.   I haven't had luck with either coals, torch, or heat gun for straightening.

Any tips? Something I need to know?   This is more trouble than willow, tamarisk, plum suckers, or choke cherry shoots I have used in the past.  But there is a ton of this stuff growing above the riverbottom, and I would like to use it.

[Buck67]

I usually have to straighten my Red Osier shafts 3 times before they are ready to use.  On the first day straighten as well as the shaft will accept and then set aside for a day.  Straighten a little better the next day and set aside for a day.  On the third day a few will need a little more straightening and then they should all be ready.  It makes a decent shaft, but you can't hurry it.

[Pat B]

What Buck said.
 Is the red osier seasoned?  You can green straighten the red osier cold every few days while it is drying and that will eliminate most of the crooks. When using heat later on seasoned shafts you have to let the shafts cool completely before trying to straighten it more. Doing this over a couple of days is a good way to do this.
 Did you cut mature shoots? You can tell if they are mature by the twigs on the shoot and not just the scars from last years leaves.

[Ontario Archer]

I've made several red osier arrows. I season them much longer than any other wood, usually over a month (I season as little as a week for other woods). I also have found that osier with any side branches is almost a waste of time, so I use only the shoots from the centre of the thicket, where I can get an arrow's length with no side branches. That means, of course, far fewer shafts. That said, I've had some osier stumping arrows last years.

[Pat B]

Shoots without side branches are generally first year growth. In my opinion they don't make as good of arrows as more mature shoots. Generally they are more flimsy.

[Springbuck]

Shoots without side branches are generally first year growth. In my opinion they don't make as good of arrows as more mature shoots. Generally they are more flimsy.

This may be it, Pat.  This is a youngish thicket.  The shoots have side twigs, but most for only half the shaft.  Too late to green straighten it.  I peeled them, bundled them and dried them for a couple of weeks.

Buck, do you just straighten them without heat, or with heat 3 times.  These would be so brittle by then I think, even when I'm trying to heat it so little that the wood doesn't change color.

Ontario, what does longer seasoning do for them if they are dry?  Mine have half the shaft or more with no branches, and maybe two or three collars toward the tail.

Anybody;  would oil help?  Should I heat them super gently?  With plum and bamboo, I usually actually toast them.

[Ontario Archer]

In my experience, the lack of side branches had more to do with the density of the thicket rather than first year/second year growth. As for the longer seasoning, I'm of the mind that dry vs. seasoned isn't the same thing, and that the wood continues to lose moisture over the next few months after initial drying. But, I haven't made a scientific study of it. I find that if I make the arrows after they're only first dry, constant restraightening becomes more of an issue.

[Pat B]

Generally speaking, most shoots grow their ultimate height the first year and have only leaves. At each leaf is a bud. Next growing season the buds sprout into twigs and the twigs grow leaves...and so on year after year. If the shoots are growing in thick cover they still follow the same pattern but the twigs or leaves might only sprout where sun is available. If you move that shoot out into full sun it would probably sprout all along the shoot.
 I do agree that seasoned shoot shafts make more reliable arrows than just dry shoots. The main differences are seasoned shoots stay straight better and their spine is more stable. Dry shoots work well be they generally won't stay straight and their spine could increase as they season.
 All of this is from my own experiences with making cane and hardwood shoot arrows for many years. Sourwood is my favorite shoot arrow but I've made arrows from red osier and other dogwoods, different viburnums, hazel, salt cedar and others.

[Aaron H]

So Pat B,  what would you consider to be dry shoots, and what would you consider seasoned shoots?  Time speaking that is.

[Pat B]

I made a sourwood arrow a few years ago in 3 days from cutting. I stripped the bark(only with sourwood) and laid it under my wood stove, straightening it as I went. In 3 days it was dry and I made the arrow. I wouldn't try stripping the bark that soon with other shoots, they would probably check. The arrow shot fine but I had to keep straightening it.
 I have shoots that are a year of more old and they make the most stable arrows. The same goes for cane arrows.
 

[Buck67]

Springbuck,  I use heat each time I straighten the shafts.  It doesn't seem to affect the durability of the wood.

[Pat B]

I use heat(gas kitchen stove) when straightening hardwood shoots and cane. After I get them straight(over multiple sessions) I go back over each shoot tempering it by starting at one end and heating until I get color while rotating  the shoot. I move down the shoot until I reach the end(beware of steam at the far end) then let the shoot(s) lay flat for a day or two before working them any more...so heat it not the problem but allows us to make arrows from hardwood shoots and cane.  (BTW) I use the same methods with cane.

[crooketarrow]

   I hav'nt done any red osier for a couple years. But I've did dozzens of alternet dog wood. And the route I take works the same.
 
  You need to start with at least 2 year olds. But for about 5 years I've been doing this. Those 3,4,5 year olds stay straighter alot better. These shoots are bigger,bigger than a 1/2,3/4's not to big. This way I can rasp out those kinks INSTEAD OF TRYING TO BEND THEM OUT. All I've got to do is straighten out those long beens. You can use'lly do this at first cold straightings.


  I use'ly cut when I have time JAN.FEB. Right after I cut them I'll bundle the right sizes together. Some times when I cut I cut 50 to 100 at a time. I'll use'lly lay the exture nice ones for me.

  I cut them that first time straighten cold. I only straighen one time to the ones I sell.
  So I've straighten once cold. Now mind I'll strighten again cold. And then the third time I put no  time limit on the 3 times I straighten cold.

  Those 3 times I can get out those long curves out. Now only curves left are the shorter jinks or short curves.  Use'y I'll straighen cold again one last time third time. I'll bundle and let them season a month or so.

   If you want your shafts to stay straight don't get in a hurry. They have to go through the whole process. How your done the cold beening. Now all left is the short kinks and curves. The little curves are easy to get out with a little heat and time.

  You have to start at one end and move straighting to the other. You soon find out about this. I like to let each kink rehydrate before moveing on.  If you do'nt go slow here your heating your next kink will  take out the one you just did.

  Use a heat gun this way you keep the heat spot small. I've made different size cone's. So I'll have different sizes hole. I keep the heat directed away form the kink you just removed. You angle the heat away so you don't remove the been you just fixed. I uselly fit a kink let totally rehtdrate Us'lly about a day.

 I sand down as I go,useing a arrow block they take high spots off.  I move on to the next shoot fix rehydrate sand and move on and so on. After straighting 2 times the kinks have gotten smaller and the shafts getting closer to the weight I need for that arrow.

  I should say each time I heat I use cooking oil to keep the wood rehydrate from scorching.
 Let me say here go slowwwwwwwwwww. If you scorch the wood those outer layers of the wood shaft are dead cells now not seasoned. You have a weak spot you tell when beening it. Those stops have affect on the shoots spine.

  Go slow when heating. If you scorching you need to step back look at the way your doing it. SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW DOWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.

  Plus a kink heated slowly and taken out seams to stay fixed with out rerstaightening alot better.

  Now the shoots close to weight  But has those couple kinks just won't come out. With each straightening the kinks are either taken out or very small to be taken out. This third time will take them out.

  Each time I straighten I direct the heat to a smaller spot with each time I straighten.

  I don't temper anymore. Reheating what you've fixed before will leave you with a arrow you have to restraighten all over again. SO DON'T REHEAT THE KINKS YOU'VE FIXED.

  If I'm hurrying means I'm not in the right frame of mine. I use'lly quit and move on to another project. Keep alert to what your doing it's easy to ruin a shaft you have unpteen hours in it.

   Each time your a little closer. After the third time I sand to the corect weight cut in my knocks and slots for my heads. I'll leave them set a couple days to see if they keep there straightest.

  I might have to reheat(do) some of those kinks to get the desired straightest.

   Sometimes I'll have to use that 4 th straighting. Theres always that one kink that just won't stay straight. I'll uslly just stick it up in the raffers. Then later when I'm in a better frame of mind I pick it up again.

 I don't know about any other woods but I use alternet dogwood alot because it's there. Doing this route I have 6 and 7 year old dogwood arrows

. Thats still straight . Just store them straight up and down.

  Those 3,4 and 5 year old shoots 1/2",3/4" stay straighter than those arrows you been and been and been on. Now I just rasp them straight a lot less heating beening. The time you spend on each shaft is cut in half.

 Not trying to say my way the only or right way of doing it. It's just my ways that seam to work the best for me.

[Jodocus]

Thanks croocketarrow, I guess that's more or less all one needs to know about straightening shoots for arrows, any kind of.

(except Viburnum lantana wich is real easy).

Very good summary, this should be stickied somehere or put to the ressources section.

[Springbuck]

  Thanks for all the advice.  I'm getting it done, now.  Here is what I learned.  I have no idea how to age them, but the wood of each seems to have similar weight and hardness, so I'm going with it.  They are NOT as tough as I expected, though, tougher than willow, or rose, but not as tough as plum shoots.

  Anyway, I procured a rock from the landscaping at work, with a medium rough surface and thus some real ability to apply friction. I used another rock to grind a small groove in the edge.  This works better than a regular hook.

 What I learned is that, unlike other materials, I can't just let them flex a bit against the hook as I work them.  I really have to flex them pretty far, like crank on em good, and then apply the metal hook or the rock.  I have to bend them more during the hooking than anything I have tried yet.  actually, the plum take about the same, but I had always done plum with heat.  Lot's of bend and hard, high frinction rubbing do the trick.

Next time, I willnot cut them to 30", and will leave them longer, so I have more thickness to form nocks at the skinny end.   They are spining out ok, and I can scrape the front end down, but leaving a few inches will allow me to do that cranking on the front end, and allow me to mess with spine more by massing with length.

  Thanks guys.