Good tiller doesn't always look good

[Badger]

  Part of the process here is that the new guys comming up start weighing in a little bit by answering questions and critiqueing bows. The guys who have been here longer are reading the posts and if need be will often step in and make a correction here and there. Ihave to go along with Jim and some of the others. Try to awknowedge the good you see but don't shy away from pointing something out you don't agree with. Its all done in good faith.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Only if he is a new pilot Jim!

[Danzn Bar]

That's a good point Badger.........
This is a forum/discussion place and all in good faith....
Thanks for reminding all of us..
DBar

[Hrothgar]

I always welcome criticism, positive and otherwise, and I'm still trying for that 'perfect' bow. Sometimes the necessary tiller adjustments seem to go against logic. Here is a little osage bow that draws pretty evenly, but clearly it doesn't start out that way.

Sorry for the double post.

[half eye]

Sorry Jim, Gary was another Davis of my acquaintence years ago.  There is a significant difference between "your gear is up or down" and "your crappy bow bends too much at the fades, too stiff in the middle and it's whip tillered too". If you haven't seen or recognize that criticisim is a matter of characterization and the way it's put forward then you missed my point. Feed-back can be positive or ya can jump off the roof on 'em, there is nothing wrong with giving your opinion in a nice way....put forward as a matter of percieved superiority is wrong no matter how you color it.
rich

[Weylin]

Not to mention. We ALL know what 280 views and 5 replies means. That says enough to the builder. Been there done that.

Hahaha! 

[adb]

I think some people, especially newer bow makers, will comment on tiller to gain credibility, but are not really sure what decent tiller and design looks like. The ability to 'see' decent tiller takes practice and experience. I still struggle with it.

I've read hundreds of posts of people commenting on 'good' tiller that is clearly not. I make positive comments on what I believe is a well made bow, and generally don't comment on bows that are not. Not always, but mostly. I'm like Pearlie... I'm not willing to sugar coat, but I am willing to be honest. I believe it makes us better bow makers. This is a contentious issue, and one that will raise many issues. I have attenuated my criticisms lately. It requires more energy than I'm willing to offer. Most are right... offer critiques in a positive way, it's better.

[adb]

Here's a small bit of advice for bow makers, especially newer bow makers...

If you set out to tiller a specific type of bow, acquire a photo of a well tillered bow of that design, and pin it up beside your tiller tree, and refer to it often throughout the process of building that particular bow. Strive to duplicate what you're looking at.

[bubbles]

As someone who is relatively new,  I try to make my own critiques in my head without reading what others have said first.  Then, my thoughts are either confirmed or proved wrong by other, more experienced bowyers comments.  I usually only make a comment if I'm one of the first few on the thread and there is a very obvious problem.   One of the things I see most often, but don't comment on is the difference between how much the bottom limb and top limb are working. Sometimes it's a subtle difference, and other times it can be quite pronounced.   This isn't necessarily a problem, but just a difference of tillering preference relating to the positive vs. neutral tiller argument, or the stiffer bottom limb idea or an assymetrical bow layout. On the other hand, it could be a simple matter of canting the bow too much during the FD pic, and giving a skewed perspective.

[Marc St Louis]

I understand what Jim is talking about.  What I would add to all this is that if you want a critic on your bow's tiller please include an unbraced profile

[JoJoDapyro]

As a new guy,  I would much rather be told what is wrong than to have 280 views and 5 comments. I can handle what people say. If I were worried what people were going to say, I wouldn't post about it. I think that us new guys will never get better if those of you who have been doing this a long time don't chime in, us new guys may never get better. I guess if you aren't adult enough to take criticism, then you shouldn't post. But I think that it is only fair to get an honest critique.

[Dances with squirrels]

I'm with you Jim, entirely, in fact, coincidentally last weekend I typed out a new thread covering the exact same thing then got pulled away from the computer and never posted it.

I refuse to give any tiller critique whatsoever without an unbraced picture. How can anyone possibly know how a bow's drawn profile should/could look without being familiar with it unbraced? A front profile picture wouldn't hurt either.

I'd guess that I disagree with about 50% of the tillering/timing advice given on the sites I visit.

[rps3]

Personally I feel that if I post a bow, I am giving consent for both constructive criticism and praise . I am a big boy, and have done alot worse than make a poorly tillered bow. If I wanted only to hear "nice one", I would just show it to my Mom.

[adb]

One other thing for me... I'd rather see a plain-Jane, well tillered bow, than a fancied up, poorly tillered bow. All the snake skins, fancy grips and Mammoth ivory tip overlays don't make up for poorly executed tiller.

[George Tsoukalas]

Again I don't think that issuing constructive criticism or not is the main thrust of Jim's first post.

But it was a long post and the last sentence was about feedback which is why the thread has morphed into that. LOL.

Which is too bad because he had some good constructive tiller advice in the beginning of his post.

Jawge