Author Topic: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers  (Read 17975 times)

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Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2015, 12:06:06 pm »
" Crude estimations" have no place in proving a point.

Agreed. There are so many tricks to applying sinew in a pre-loaded fashion while its still wet. Then as it dries it pulls a bit more if your lucky. So the sinew is loaded before the limb even starts to bent to brace, or beyond. Had you actually made a sinewed bow already and felt it wasn't worth it, Id tell you its your own fault and to try again the right way this time. Cant argue with 10,000 years of historical use of sinew on bows.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline joachimM

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2015, 01:00:14 pm »
Crude estimations, if they are made conservatively, can make a point.
I can't measure the thickness of the bow accurately from the pictures, so I made it conservative. From the pictures, it seems the bow is about 0.6 " thick (I asked Simon about it).
I took the reflex the sinew induced by shrinking into account, and even then, suppose I underestimated the thickness by 30%,  the 26" draw won't stretch the sinew more than 1.5% (which is still within reach of flax).

Don't get me wrong:
I don't question that sinew is useful, especially on short bows. What I'm trying to convey is that on many designs on which sinew is typically used, plant fibers may also yield very good results, especially when you pull the bow into reflex before applying the backing. Sinew does that by itself by shrinking. The reason why I think plant fibers may often yield similar performance is that the sinew is rarely stretched more than the plant fibers could take, except for horn-sinew composites.

But I guess my argumentation is futile here against two heavy-weights opposing it.

Still, I'd like to see a comparison between flax and sinew as backing on short wood bows.

Humans are conservative by nature, sticking to what works. Which isn't necessarily what's best. Arguments like "people have been doing so for 10 000 years so it must be the best possible combination" don't convince me. Many ancient bow designs (e.g., the Meare heath bow) were rather suboptimal if you consider the mass principle, and yet they were used (and are still used by some for hunting), because good enough is all you need. You don't need a 175 fps shooting bow if you can kill a buffalo with a 150 fps bow. Maybe it was easier or more convenient for many native Americans to use sinew instead of plant fibers (and they surely didn't have flax).

So the historical argument feels like claiming that a tall pyramid can only be built without wheels, because the Egyptians didn't use wheels ...   
 

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2015, 01:12:56 pm »
You just need to do your active mind a favor and properly sinew a suitable designed bow or six, then make some deductions. Have you measured the elasticity of sinew vs. flax? Do you know which reacts/recovers quicker?
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline willie

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2015, 01:26:19 pm »
joeachim

I have been intrigued by the use of fiber backings and flax is often cited to have good potential. My research has shown that some of the best flax in the world comes from your country, and it seems that flax harvested for other uses may not be as strong as it could be, or the best that bowyers would like have for their use. Certainly the strongest flax would be of interest for string making too.

 Have you looked into how to make best use of your local flax, built with/or used flax in your bows or sourced some local flax that might might have been harvested and retted for optimal strength? Perhaps the bowyers in this community would find reports of this type more pertinent than speculations about sinew or some cheap mexican twine salvaged for use in your last bow project.
 
Just sayin, as there are guys here that would like to get their hands on the best flax in the world if there was a way,

willie
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 01:58:25 pm by willie »

Offline crooketarrow

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2015, 02:01:39 pm »
  All plant matter (organic) will dehydrate then slowly desecrate with age. Even if it's sealed. Ask anyone thats braded or twisted up corage for rope. I won't last very long even if it's sealed and protected.

  CROOKET ARROW told me a long time ago there's nothing green worth useing for a backing. I never disputed him he's built bows for over 50 years.
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Offline joachimM

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2015, 05:08:57 pm »
You just need to do your active mind a favor and properly sinew a suitable designed bow or six, then make some deductions. Have you measured the elasticity of sinew vs. flax? Do you know which reacts/recovers quicker?

Is there anyone out there who know which reacts or recovers quicker? Anyone who can compare six decently made sinew-backed to six decently made flax-backed? I have the impression that we're having arguments pro this or pro that, but very few hard facts to compare it to.

I haven't measured the elasticity of sinex vs flax, luckily other people have done so (Dick Baugh measured it for sinew, data on flax can be found easily). This article is informative. http://www.primitiveways.com/secrets_of_sinew.html

So if you want to know: the modulus of elasticity (the resistance against tension, in this case) of sinew is about 3.3 GPa, that of flax is 58 GPa. Meaning, it takes close to eighteen times more force to stretch flax a certain amount than sinew, although the specific gravity of flax is just a bit higher (1.45 compared to 1.3). The sinew can stretch in an elastic manner (though it takes about 10% of temporary set, or creep) up to 5%, flax can do so up to 1.8%. I don't know about the degree of creep there. 

So if you back a bow with sinew, you need to put a lot on it to gain some poundage. At the expense of adding a lot of mass too. However, you will be able to bend the bow further than if it were unbacked. The limit is then given by the belly properties of the wood (and the thickness of the stave you're backing). The most compression-resistant woods are junipers (especially eastern red cedar), osage, yew (the usual suspects for sinewing), but also lignum vitae, pear, buckthorn, madagascar rosewood, and a few other species. 

If you back a bow with flax, you don't want to add a third of the thickness like with sinew, cos the belly would be crushed. Suppose that you'd normally make a self bow 14 mm or 9/16" thick, then you could take a wooden core half as thick, and back it with a thin layer (1 mm) of flax and still have decent poundage, thanks to the high MOE of flax. The belly is protected against set by virtue of its low thickness (in effect, the neutral plane will be close to the flax glue line, nearly all the wood working in compression.
You could make short bows (50" with 28" draw) in this way. These bows will be much lighter than similar poundage sinew bows, because you need to add only a thin layer (<10%) of the heavy flax-glue combo (compared to a third of the nearly as heavy sinew-glue matrix).

The hazel bow I made (but which broke due to an accidental dry fire): suppose I had sinewed it (nobody in his right mind would do that), it would still have had a low draw weight (<30# according to Dick's info), but it would have become a lot heavier, and would therefore be a rather slow bow. With a comparatively thin layer of low-quality plant fiber backing, I got nearly double the poundage (~40#) and a pretty fast shooting bow.

So it isn't about which backing is the best. It's about knowing how to use each of them, depending on what your purpose is and what wood (species and thickness) you are gluing it on. That will give you the best backing for each specific bow. On PA, I rarely read about plant fiber backings, and the default value seems either hickory/bamboo or sinew.

As for sinew: when stretched to 5%, as in this bow for example (http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/60635) it requires as much force to bend to its elastic limit as a similar thickness piece of a heavy wood species like Ipe. That is when the ultimate properties of sinew surface, rather than when you stretch it only 1.5%. In sinew-wood-horn composites, the added weight of the dense sinew-glue matrix is traded against the ultimate performance sinew can give, but also requiring more than most woods can take in compression, hence the horn belly.
   

Offline PatM

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2015, 05:22:24 pm »
     You're getting a bit carried away with untested knowledge here...... Make all the bows and THEN come back with the " how and why".

Offline joachimM

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2015, 05:22:55 pm »
joachim

I have been intrigued by the use of fiber backings and flax is often cited to have good potential. My research has shown that some of the best flax in the world comes from your country, and it seems that flax harvested for other uses may not be as strong as it could be, or the best that bowyers would like have for their use. Certainly the strongest flax would be of interest for string making too.

 Have you looked into how to make best use of your local flax, built with/or used flax in your bows or sourced some local flax that might might have been harvested and retted for optimal strength? Perhaps the bowyers in this community would find reports of this type more pertinent than speculations about sinew or some cheap mexican twine salvaged for use in your last bow project.
 
Just sayin, as there are guys here that would like to get their hands on the best flax in the world if there was a way,

willie

I'm in the process of tillering a flax-backed bow, but I'm going slowly. We do have absolutely superb flax, grown even locally. here's a sample with nice looong fibres that will back at least four to five bows. Once you have your hide glue, you back an entire bow in 20 minutes.
This flax is still commonly used by plumbers to seal pipe fittings, so you find this in hardware stores for 5€ per bundle shown. You could get entire bales of this stuff http://www.albertbrille.be/products%20English.htm

If you want to try a sample, I could probably send you such a bundle overseas.

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2015, 05:42:57 pm »
when you back a bow with sinew,, you do not have to put a lot to gain poundage,,using a minimum amount to hold the reflex desired is optimum,, I just made sinew bow with 600 to 700 grains of sinew on the back,,it is holding 4 inches of reflex,, the layer of sinew is very thin,,I am sure the plant fiber backs have  advantages,, I dont know about them,, but am open to learning,, I like sinew,, but am still a beginner and learning every bow I make,, I just like making bows  and improving if I can,, :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 07:27:51 pm by bradsmith2010 »

Offline JoJoDapyro

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2015, 10:46:12 pm »
How many Paleo peoples backed bows with Flax Vs. Sinew? That may answer the questions you are asking. If it was done, why did it stop, and if it wasn't, why wasn't it?
If you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got.
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Offline willie

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2015, 03:54:52 pm »
Joachim

the offer is appreciated, and if the flax I have proves unsatisfactory I will take you up on that. Almost all flax grown in the Americas is grown for seed, consequently the fiber salvaged after seed harvest is said to be premature and brittle. Fiber purchased from the yarn spinning shops is rated by its users for its ease of use or appearance, but little can be found out about it's production specs, as it comes from suppliers that do not pass the info along to the retailers. Do you know of flax grown, harvested and processed for its strength qualities?

 As flax is not native to the Americas,  I am as interested as JoJo if you know of any examples of primitive fiber bow backings from European cultures?
willie

Offline PatM

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Re: Why use sinew when you have plant fibers
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2015, 04:01:39 pm »
Flax is gaining momentum as a biocomposite material for a wide range of uses. You can even buy unidirectional flax "tape". I'll try to find link that shows this without being an Ad.
http://www.jeccomposites.com/news/composites-news/analysis-tensile-behaviour-unidirectional-flaxepoxy-plies