Author Topic: Why is a crowned back favorable?  (Read 22200 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline burchett.donald

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,437
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2015, 09:29:46 am »
joachimM,
                 I don't know how to post links but I posted a bow a couple a weeks ago that had a super high crown and had very flat belly called { Ocean Spray Bow "Inspired by Half Eye }... This bow shocked me in that it was 49" ntn  57@25 reported weight gain and half inch of reflex by half eye...I don't know or understand what mechanics are going on other than maybe wood species...This bow was tillered to 26 1/2" and shot by me at 26" before shipping to Rich. Now I'm in know way blowing my own horn just wish I knew what was really going on with this sapling high crown compared to my semi flat back bows...Anyway it's something for you to check out and I'm going to make some more high crowned bows and see what gives, open minded and still learning... The bow has not been shot 1000 times yet though ;)
                                                                                                                Don
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 09:37:52 am by burchett.donald »
Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

blackhawk

  • Guest
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2015, 09:35:29 am »
A high crown or trapped back is not favorable in all designs...it depends on what design you are trying to execute. I think your misunderstanding what badger is saying. When a bow has short working limbs its more favorable to have a lower to not much crown. This allows you to be able to make a wider limb...with a high crown its not feasible or possible to establish the width needed because shorter working limbs need more width than normally. And you also can run into tension problems with too much crown in a shorter working limb. I've experienced this first hand,and make a lot of bows with short working limbs. With a lower to no crown the tension is now spread a lil wider across the back. I've seen hickory(king of tension woods) and other strong tension woods break in tension with a high crowned short working limb. After these failures I realized and learned that the crown was too high,and now when I build a bow that is going to have short working limbs I look for a piece of wood that has a low to almost no crown. Now this doesn't mean every piece with a high crown and short working limbs will break...just that it will be much more prone to doing so.

Again...moral of the story is it depends on the bows design

Offline joachimM

  • Member
  • Posts: 675
  • Good - better - broken
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2015, 10:23:16 am »
In hindsight, the topic title should have been "when is a crown favourable", not why.
I agree that it all depends on the bow design.

Offline steve b.

  • Member
  • Posts: 999
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2015, 11:53:17 am »
I agree with Blackhawk.  I tend to make any bow based on the width of the belly.  I disregard the crown initially. 
With a narrow-high-crowned-stave (nhcs) the width reduces quickly as you remove belly.  So I start with the belly where I want it then I take a look at tiller/weight and decide if I need to remove that crown, and how much crown. 
I think the fact that everyone here has mentioned that the short working limb needs to be flat says it all.

Offline Badger

  • Member
  • Posts: 8,124
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2015, 12:09:34 pm »
  I will be the first to admit that I have little understanding of how tension and compression forces work in conjunction with one another. I do know of quite a few woods that I use with high crowns frequently without problems. Elm, plum, yew, ocean spray, and even osage are all good examples. I still seem to do better without the crown though.

   How would you define strength? I have been under the impression that strength refers to how much it resists bending. I have read in many sources that wood almost always fails in compresion before it breaks and I don't neccessarily buy that one either. I just don't see evidence that this is true. Its a good discussion and I am admittedly not comming from a place of a good understanding. I have relied more on just knowing what to expect from a piece of wood.

Offline PatM

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,737
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2015, 12:23:13 pm »
I think that's stiffness, not strength.
 The trouble with comparing strength of tension versus compression is that failure past the elastic limit manifests differently.
 Compressed wood can visually appear fine while stretched wood is going to be broken.

Offline joachimM

  • Member
  • Posts: 675
  • Good - better - broken
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2015, 01:14:06 pm »
A good visual overview on wood properties, including what compression failure represents (set; wood strain) and how that works can be found here:
http://forest.mtu.edu/classes/fw1035/2011/Lecture%2010%20-%20Mechanical%20Properties%20of%20Wood.pdf

Offline bradsmith2010

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,187
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2015, 02:21:04 pm »
if someone would post I have a 50# bow flat back and it shoots 170fps
and i have a 50 bow it is crowned from the same stave and shoots 180 fps  same draw and arrow weight etc,,
I would understand better :)
I think the performance improvement so far is from heat treating as to reduce the mass of the bow,, and not so much about the crown,,

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,268
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2015, 03:27:56 pm »
Joeachim


I have read your explanation of proportional limit many times and am a bit confused by

 
Quote
proportional limit (the degree of tension above which there is set)

It is my understanding that a materiel being stressed may reach its proportional limit in either compression or tension. These limits would be different for each stress in wood, just as the tension strength and the compression strength differ widely. we easily see the proportional limit in compression first, as it develops quite a bit before failure.

the link you posted for the overview pdf is a good intro to the basics of the engineering principles. Please look at the chart that shows the "factors affecting wood strength" p 12. You can see here how if a bow were to be designed to have three times the stress on the back as the belly, it would be ok at 12% mc, but would fail on the back at 6% mc.
In a back failure, the proportional limit in tension is not often apparent, as it occurs very close to the breaking point, and any "set" that occurs on the back is not easily seen apart from the set on the belly.

It is certainly possible to build a bow that performs exceptionally well at the optimum mc, but as Tim baker mentions on p 118, Design and Performance in Tbb4, "a bow is still a bow until its back breaks, so its generally safer to avoid trapping". That is of course, if you are concerned about charging grizzly bears. If your interest is making the ultimate flight shot, then by all means, push your design to the limit.

I have not seen the usual posts about breaking bows this winter, perhaps it is warmer (moister) than normal this season. As always, wear your eye protection when you shoot.   

Offline joachimM

  • Member
  • Posts: 675
  • Good - better - broken
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2015, 05:01:18 pm »
Willie,
Thanks a lot for bringin this information to the attention.
My main goal is to understand better why some bows shoot faster/better than other, why some break and others don't. MC is a critical factor, so it seems. Here in belgium we always have humid winters.
I'll let you know if the backs break next summer or so :-)
Over here bowhunting is illegal, and we have no bears either.

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,268
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2015, 05:38:32 pm »
Joachim

I guess I should add that storing or building the bow in a heated building is usually the culprit, as the relative humidity typically goes much lower in the winter when we heat outside air. some like to keep their bows in an unheated space for this reason.

if you can weigh the bow mass to the gram when you do a draw weight test, you
might be surprised how easy it is to watch the values change in conjunction with each other.

Offline joachimM

  • Member
  • Posts: 675
  • Good - better - broken
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2015, 08:44:48 am »
About moisture content and the relation it has with the proportional limit:
I measured ambient moisture where I store all of my bows, curing staves and other bow wood: At c. 65% ambient moisture at 25°C the equilibrium MC of the wood would be around 12%
So I reckon I'm definitely safe there.

A note on Badger's former posts on hysteresis and the mass principle (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,17294.0.html, http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,48766.msg665748.html)

I really should monitor hysteresis (through no-set tillering) next time I tiller a crowned or trapped bow, to see if there is indeed an high cost of hysteresis, and if these crowned bows indeed have a lot of hidden (not apparent) set.




Offline George Tsoukalas

  • Member
  • Posts: 9,425
    • Traditional and Primitive Archers
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2015, 09:49:34 am »
I think Badger meant to say that wood is stronger in tension than compression.

So what design would be improved by a high crown?

Jawge
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline joachimM

  • Member
  • Posts: 675
  • Good - better - broken
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2015, 08:55:29 am »
Jawge,

I've tried to put a simple overview together. Here's the short (!) explanation.
As for tension-compression ratios: look at the wood database and compare Modulus of rupture (tension strength) with crushing strength (compression strength). As of elasticity, that's given by the modulus of elasticity. The lower, the more elastic the wood is.
This database has thought me that we have an equivalent to osage orange in Europe, namely common pear. Hawthorn (Crataegus laevigata) is probably very close to that (my preferred bow wood).

I'm trying to add an image, which says more than my explanation (Hope this link works now).
https://www.milieuinfo.be/dms/d/d/workspace/SpacesStore/d05ff317-a04e-4cbc-960e-148d65813f0b/Trapping-toasting-thinning.jpg

To avoid set, we need to find the balance at which the belly wood is never compressed beyond the proportional limit (the amount of stress at which the wood starts to surrender, either in tension or in compression; typically this is in compression). The closer the belly surface is to the neutral plane (NP), the less compression each fiber is exposed to. So we want to bring the neutral plane as close as necessary towards the belly.

We can achieve this in at least three ways, abbreviated TTT, for trapping, toasting, thinning:
1)   thin the limbs. This brings the NP closer to both back and belly. The trade-off is a weaker bow limb. This can be mitigated by making it wider, at the cost of a higher bow mass. Since bow mass matters most at the outer limbs, the solution is to have a wide but thin working upper bow limb, and a narrow stiff outer limb for minimal mass. The maximum width is mostly constrained by the stave properties.
2)   Heat-treat the belly. Heat-treating or toasting makes the belly wood stronger, so less belly is required to counter the tension load. Hence, the neutral plane shifts downwards.
3)   Trap the back, which results in more belly relative to back surface. As a result, the belly is now stronger relative to the back, which also shifts the neutral plane towards the belly. Trapping reduces total mass, increasing cast.
In all three cases, the belly is less strained, as a result of which the bow can be drawn farther before taking set than in the reference condition. In the latter two, the bow can be made a bit thicker for the same draw length before taking set. Since a change in a bow limb from 1 cm to 1.1 cm gives you a 33% increase in draw weight but only 10% increase in mass (and less if trapped), the advantage of a trapped back –provided your wood can take it- is self-explanatory.

Under what circumstances is a crowned/trapped back favorable?
1)   when you cannot make the limbs broad enough. There’s plenty of bow wood that never gets 2 or 3” wide. And a crowned stave is easier to find than a flat stave.
2)   When you have very tension-strong wood (relative to compression strength). This is why Elm bows perform best when crowned.
3)   When you are a rookie and tillering mistakes are easily made and hard to mend (the thinner the limb, the more careful you need to tiller to avoid hinges)
Under what circumstances is crowning unfavorable?
1)   when you have tension-weak wood (relative to compression; e.g., Eastern red cedar and other true Juniper species, Sassafras). This is why Juniper is often backed with sinew, to provide a tension-strong back to compensate for the compression-strong juniper (as far as I’ve seen, relative to its elasticity the wood that is strongest in compression).
2)   when you decide to have broad thin limbs anyway. Trapping thin limbs yields only minor mass reductions. 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 04:05:11 am by joachimM »

Offline Badger

  • Member
  • Posts: 8,124
Re: Why is a crowned back favorable?
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2015, 09:16:59 am »
      Joach, have you considered the following into your calculations. Something all spring have in common is that they have a rate of increase. We usually rate them at how much they build per inch. As we compress the belly on a bow and it starts building pressure it would not take long before it built enough to force the back to start working in tension. In most cases the belly will still have available elasticity to continue to compress while the back will fail rather quickly once the compression forces become equal to the tension limits. Back don't like to stretch. I know this goes counter to a lot of experts who claim the belly is always the first to fail. I believe in most cases the beack fails first because the belly catches up to it with opposite forces.

     In other words, when a bow is at rest the bback is twice as strong as the belly,( twice the resistance to stretching than the belly has resistance to compressing) once you start to bend the bow the forces will quickly start to equal out until one gives.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 09:21:04 am by Badger »