Author Topic: burried in water bow stave  (Read 16713 times)

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Offline Carson (CMB)

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2015, 10:56:15 am »
safe storage seems like a reasonable explanation, but then there is mention of old world yew bowyers storing bow staves in creeks. Which seems to me more about curing the wood than safe storage.

From the discussion on seasoning wood, I remember there being two types of moisture in wood, free and bound. The way i remember it, free moisture in the wood is easily lost, but bound moisture is lost very slowly over time. I wonder if submerging the wood in water somehow increases the rate of loss of this chemically bound water. 
"The bow is the old first lyre,
the mono chord, the initial rune of fine art
The humanities grew out from archery as a flower from a seed
No sooner did the soft, sweet note of the bow-string charm the ear of genius than music was born, and from music came poetry and painting and..." Maurice Thompso

Offline willie

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2015, 12:53:24 pm »
I would not say that some of the water is " chemically bound" so much.
I was taught to imagine the difference between free and bound as....... free being what you can squeeze out of a sponge, and bound as the dampness which remains, but will dry out after a while.
Could long term underwater storage affect the wood or some of its components, changing the way a wood takes up and releases water (moisture) in the future.

Can anyone cite any advantages to using wet stored wood? proverbial or experienced? Perhaps the bow made from it performed better somehow?

Offline Poggins

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2015, 01:46:19 pm »
My father used to build engines for race cars in the 50's and 60's , they would bore out the engine blocks and hone them , they would find a spring fed creek and sink the block in the creek for a week or two then pull it out and lightly hone it one more time before building the engine , he claimed that some minerals in the water would seep into the pores in the castiron and make the metal harder making the engines last longer .
Maybe some of this same process is happening to the wood , sunken wood does feel heavier after it dries than a stave that has sat in a barn for a couple years .

Offline DC

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2015, 01:49:12 pm »
You have to wonder how he decided to do that the first time? Probably some corn involved ;D

Offline Poggins

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2015, 12:02:45 am »
Hard to say , dad grew up working on engines and who knows which old timer passed this knowlage to him .
An uncle in law of dads used to build bows and fly rods in the late 40's , dad says that his uncle would season some of his bow wood in a spring for a few months before working on it , dad said he would tiller his bows , he would clamp the bow to a bench and them tie a weight to one limb and scrape the belly with a peace of glass until the weight touched the floor the do the same procces to the other limb , dad never saw him deer hunt ( back then There weren't very many deer around ) but did see him take squirrels with the bows , dad said he thinks most of the bows were cedar , the fly rods were dogwood that he would cut and hang in a barn wit a rock tied to one end so they would dry straight .
Maybe seing those bow staves sunk in a spring led to the engine blocks soaking in a creek .

Offline sleek

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2015, 12:09:16 am »
Not all creeks are equal. Water quality will very with mineral composition by location. If it did work, maybe it only worked in areas with certain minerals in the water. This fact being unknown to others the idea spread. We know minerals will soak in. Look at petrified wood for example. I have held sunken cedar before and lemme tell ya, its heavy. I have a bit of wood im going to get tomorrow morning that came from a lake bottom. Its big enough for a bow. Been down there a long time. Large rings and unknown species, could be interesting.
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Offline wizardgoat

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2015, 11:37:57 am »
First time I've heard the words free and bound, but makes sense to me.
very similar to dry and seasoned, and explains why some bows pick up # over time even though the staves
were dry to start

Offline willie

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2015, 01:11:13 pm »
some wood may hold more water weight than there is wood by weight. Mostly "free" and this water can be lost very rapidly when cut. Once wood get down to about 30% water content, the cells themselves start to dry and shrink, (think of a cellulose sponge that has been wrung dry. I still has full shape but when it completely dries, it will shrink up.) drying wood at this point must be controlled to prevent damage. A good resource on the properties of wood is "Understanding Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley

Seasoned can be a different term that might create discussions of it's own.

Offline jesswprater

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2015, 08:31:26 pm »
I'm not sure why, but have heard some good theories here. I'm from Ada, Oklahoma. When I was a boy (63 now) it was the accepted way to treat green Bois d' Arc. We all just accepted that as the best way. Drill a hole in each end, tie a rock on one end a rope on the other and let it sit for at least six months.

Offline sleek

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2015, 09:04:05 pm »
Hey! A fellow Okie! Im in bartlesville Oklahoma. Next weekend ill be in McAllister.  You ever that way?
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline jesswprater

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2015, 12:07:41 pm »
Just now saw your question, Sleek. At the time I read this thread and put my 2c in, I didn't know who you were. If I were to cut Osage, I would sink it just because the previous generations of Indians (Chickasaw) I know around Ada said to do it. I live on a quarter section, but my father-in-law hated Osage trees. There isn't one on this whole property. I have considered planting them. I even put a bunch of horseapples in a 5gal bucket to overwinter for planting in the spring last year.

Offline Springbuck

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2015, 12:14:48 pm »
Don't think I've ever seen any mushrooms growing on it.  I have seen some mold/mildew growing on the sapwood only of some staves stored in a damp moldy place.

 Just for fun.  If you look at Mold under a microscope, many species look like tiny mushrooms.  They are related, of course.


 Years ago there was an article in the old Primitive Bowhunter Mag, (I think), about curing staves in salt water, too.  It seemed to harden or consolidate wood, but then attract moisture later, and everybody talked about that for a few weeks on forums.

  I think urine could have a huge anti-fungal benefit.  I can't see how water, just water, would actuually improve the wood, unless long times or high mineral content were present.  A peat bog would preserve the heck out of a stave,pickling it in tannic acid.

 But so far I see the logic behind several points made here.  A submerged stave would be far less prone to decay or even oxidative breakdown than one left in the woods.  Very wet wood could be much easier to rough shape with stone tools.  Checking could be minimized.  Nomadic people could store lots of good staves this way and protect them from theft, rot, bugs, animals, etc..  (Imagine finding a PERFECT stave, but already having a really nice bow.  You can either remember where the living tree stands, and hope nobody else takes it, nothing happens to it, etc, or cut it down and bury it in the marsh.)

And, so far there doesn't seem to me to be any reasons this is a BAD idea.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 12:26:23 pm by Springbuck »

Offline Tree_Ninja

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2015, 01:12:37 pm »
Absolutely and completely off-topic?

    Using submarines and divers, there are a few salvage companies bringing up old-growth logs that sunk in the great lakes.

 These logs approach the highest dollar value ever for board making .  The super cold, deep (fresh water) preserves the wood and stops any deteriation.

   Somewhere on this site mentioned some old farmer sunk his hickory tool handles into the pig manure. Same idea as ammonia aging.

Offline Joec123able

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2015, 04:56:54 pm »
If he lets you have some of the wood, be sure to post pics !!  8)
I like osage

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: burried in water bow stave
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2015, 08:48:11 pm »
   Somewhere on this site mentioned some old farmer sunk his hickory tool handles into the pig manure.

I already know how to make sh***y bows.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.