Fast Flight String, Technical Question

[tom sawyer]

I got a roll of FF at the urging of a compadre (Mims goaded me into splurging on a roll).  The strands are thinner than Dacron yet are stronger.  I made a string or two with it and using the same number of strands, the strings sre pretty skinny.  It causes a problem because even after serving my nocks don't want to hold on the served string.

My specific questions are as follows:

1)  How many strands of FF do you use in a string for a 60lb bow?
2)  What diameter of serving do you use to get a nice comfortable serving that fits nocks?
3)  Do you add strands at the loops (Flemish) to prevent a skinny string from digging into your wood?

Thanks in advance.  This is the final thread in my string trilogy.  Not bad to think a little about strings once in awhile.  Without them our bows would be spears.

[Dano]

Lennie, I use 14 strands, heck 12 would do but you end up with a REAL skinny string. I use a .030 dia. serving to get the right diameter for knocks, you can double serve two (with smaller diam material), but you realy have to get the serving tight to stay in place. Never had a problem with the string digging into the wood.


BTW, Mims is the one that talked me into FF too

[mullet]

  I had Fast Flight on a Turkish bow and it cut the string nock off the wooden siyah.

[tom sawyer]

I knew it had to be more than 0.022", thats the biggest I had and it wasn't enough.  It was hard to fork over the cash for the high dollar stuff, and I still only have one color.  But I guess the length of string on a spool is a lot more so you aren't really paying more per string, just a larger capital outlay up front.  Still, David must have stock in Brownell or BCY or get some sort of bonus.

Whats the weather in AZ?  You're going to be missing some balmy single digits this weekend.  We did miss snow here at least.

I do think it might be wise to add some strands to the loops to avoid having it dig into the nocks.  Maybe even some Dacron.

[Rich Saffold]

Lennie, this is how I do my personal, and bows going to skilled archers, the rest get linen, b-50 or twisted rawhide...
1.10 on my bows, sometimes 8. You can always fatten the serving or the loop.
2. I will double the serving to fit a wide nock, but normally it's not a problem
3. I always use horn, antler, ipe, or something very tough to deal with this. Most wood nocks can't handle these strings, and usually will get sliced off.l

 Often I will use a double timber hitch on my personal bows to keep the twists to a minimum as well. I also shape the nocks to fit the desired string. If I have a timber hitch on the bottom I shape it for fit this..

 Glad you listened to Dave,Spectra is another favorite of mine as well, very quiet, and the guys at BCY think its the fastest material.
 Using B-50  on performance wood bows is like putting a saddle on a cheetah

Rich-

[DCM]

I use 14 strands of FF, sometimes 15, for everything.

If you/I design the string grooves correctly, it won't cut into the wood.  That hackberry bow had FF when I given it to ya.  Can't imagine a wood softer than hackberry.  Is it cut thru and ruined?  Can't speak to how turkish bows string grooves are made, but I'd agree to be extree cautious where no experience is at hand, and the stakes are high.  Have added strands up to 20 in the loops only for a (Fetrow) yew bow, for obvious reasons.  Not sure it was justified.  Have never had any problem, other than with mesquite overlay one time which was much softer than I expected.  When in doubt, pad the loops and/or check frequently to build up ones comfort level.  Have used mulberry, elm, ash, maple, other soft woods I can't remember, again without any hazard so far.

I use a double wrap of 40# (or 50#) Spiderwire braided fishing line for serving to fit 5/16 Bohning index nocks.  If you'll hound the Walmart you'll see a spool (250 yards) eventually for $5, generally late fall but I'd look now before they switch back to summer stock.  Have used "Remington" brand as well, $5 discount from Walmart.  Same/same.

FF is good value in my view, notwithstanding having to find a combination of strands and serving to fit.  I want to say either 12 and double wrap of Nylon ($4 a roll) or 18 and single wrap fits 5/16 Bohning as well.  I expect you could speariment with Nylon and find a solution.  You is a scientist after all, despite your "thumb abundant" reputation.

Can't believe you are just now getting around to figgering out how to fashion a suitable bow string.

[Lost Arra]

When you guys are referring to FF are you specifically using Fast Flight or is that generic for the non-stretch dyeema strings?

I use Dyna Flight 97 on all of my wood bows, some with overlays some without.
I'm relieved to hear I'm not the only one who doesn't routinely pad the loops since I've never had or seen a problem since I quit padding the loops.

[duffontap]

When you guys are referring to FF are you specifically using Fast Flight or is that generic for the non-stretch dyeema strings?

I use Dyna Flight 97 on all of my wood bows, some with overlays some without.
I'm relieved to hear I'm not the only one who doesn't routinely pad the loops since I've never had or seen a problem since I quit padding the loops.

I use actual Fast Flight.  I too am relieved to see that more people are using it.  I can use it with unpadded loops and no overlays on Cascara and that's soft wood. 

Lennie,
I use 14 strands on my 83# longbow and double serve with the cheap, $2 generic serving.  12 strands would do it I'm sure.  Haven't had any problems.

        J. D.

[markinengland]

I use BCY 450plus which I think is similar to fastflight.
I have cut my strings down as thin as I dare and they are still basically double the strength they really need to be. 8 strands should be enough for a 200lb bow!
On flemish strings I add one 18 inch strand for each strand which seems to be plenty. I have doudle served the middle. Another thing that works is to add one of those nock points so the arrow sits below. The arrow can then be quite a llose fit and not fall off. A little silk or even dental floss will add a bit of fat to the nocking point (sealed with superglue) to get a better fit.
I made a two strand string a while back. That really does cut the fingers! Sings a real high note too!
Mark

[tom sawyer]

I mentioned Fastflight but I do think any of the new low-stretch string materials can be considered.  Each of them probably has a slightly different strand diameter, so you'd have to find a recipe for any given combination of string and serving materials to get the right diameter of string.

I'd caution folks that the poundage of a bow does not equate to the pounds per strand on a string material.  The pounds of force a string feels, is different and from what I recall it is maximal at brace height, goes through a low at half draw and rises again near full draw.  In short, a material that has a breaking strenght of 30lb would not necessarily be "feeling" 30lb of tension on a 30lb bow.  And while a 14 strand B50 string (14x30lb=420lb) is overkill on a 42lb bow, it isn't necessarily 10X that required.  Just wanted to clear that up.

David, I've always made adequate strings.  Just wanted to get my facts straight for using that roll of FF.  And since I was having trouble getting a timber hitch to hold with the stuff (I don't know why), I thought I'd brush up on my double loop info.

[markinengland]

One old rule of thumb was to make the string 4 times bow weight. I like the one in TBB which says ten times the draw weight at 15 inches. I may be wrong, I keep on having to look it up as I forget each time I make a string. With this a string for a 50lb bow would need to have a breaking strain of 200lbs or so. Apparently the strain on the string is greatest at brace height and especially at the moment it is at brace height and just about to let go of the arrow, the strain on the bow greatest at full draw
B50 has a real strength of around 30 to 35lbs so in theory a string of six to eight strands should be strong enough. Trouble is it would stretch like anything so I guess strings were built up to reduce stretch and fit the nock. Now often people use a very very strong string material and in the same way make the string to fit the arrow nock. Now the string is totally non-stretch and enormously strong, too strong for the bow. I think this is why people said that fastlflight couldn't work on wooden bows because bows broke.
I bowyers knot should hold like anything. It took me a while to get them so I was happy with them. Mine weld themselves together and don't move at all now. I think what works for me is to wax the end of the string well, make sure it has a good tight twist, make sure I send the string the right way round the loop at least three times and then come back UNDER the knot when on the bow. Pull this tight by hand before stringing the bow and it should tighten up on itself when the bow is strung and then just stay put. A few shots and the loop will have made itself into one welded object that cannot move or come undone. tom, I think there is a right and a wrong way to tie this knot, one where the knot works against the twist like when doing the flemish twist on the string and holds itself together and maybe another way that tends to undo. Might be worth a little more experimentation?
Mark

[tom sawyer]

I know you have to run the tag end through the front of the lop, rather than wrapping around and coming in the back.  I've only been wraping it around twice, and leaving the end sticking off the back side of the bow.  I'll try a thrid wrap and pulling it under the knot, that sounds like it might work better.  My bowyers knot works fine with Dacron but the Fast Flight seems to be too slick or something, or maybe its that the string is skinnier and this makes less surface area for gripping.  Thanks for the rules of thumb, string info is interesting.  Oh and I hope you get a good turnout at your bow festival next month, you did a great writeup and I surfed the website and the place looks fascinating.

I should really be getting into the Dyna Flight or other newest-of-the-new string materials.  I can remember my compound days (5+ years ago?), fast flight was considered to be outdated and to have considerably more stretch than the new fibers.

[DCM]

The fancy newer stuff can get downright pricey.  I figure FF (FF+ is all you can actually buy today) is the best value.

450+ is fat like Dacron, hard (for me) to twist and fades dye like a big dog.  But is strong as hell no question.  I use 8 strands on my glass recurve.  Most quiet setup I could find.

D97, prolly improved since I handled it, is real nice.  Bettern FF but more expensive I think.

It's all prolly made outa the same material in different configs.

[Marc St Louis]

I use 8 strands for bows up to 60#, 10 up to 80#, 12 for bows up to 100# and so on. On the real heavy bows of 150# and up I use 18 strands. On 8, 10 and 12 strand strings I just lay in some extra strands to beef up the loops and serving for the arrows nock

[Sidewinder]

So rookie question here. Would someone explain the benefits of using the fast flight caliber of string vs Dacron B50? I noticed someone mention quietness. I also would assume if its called fast flight that it is intended to help speed up the limbs ro should I say not slow them down as much. Am I correct? Does anyone know how much difference it can make in fps?  Thanks in advance for the knowledge gained.   Danny