Author Topic: A theory  (Read 15506 times)

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Offline Badger

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Re: A theory
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2008, 01:38:45 pm »
kegan. generaly speaking a bow that is faster with one arrow will be faster with another. But when you go to extremes of light of heavy it can start to change. The best way I hear it explained was by using a term they call virtual mass. Virtual mass is basicaly used to account for all the energy unaccounted for in the arrow. A typical self bow will have close to 200 grains of virtual mass, meaning if it were 100% efficient it would shoot an arrow the same speed as it normaly does with an arrow 200 grains heavier. A flight bow might have a virtual mass of maybe 80 grains. The virtual mass in a bow has a lot to do with how fast it's dry fire speed will be. A bow with low vitual mass will normaly not store as much energy as a bow with the higher virtual mass but can accelerate a very light arrow( under 200 grains) very quickly. By the same token for a very heavy arrow more energy storage might be needed even at the cost of adding some virtual mass, which usually means heavier limbs. Steve

Offline Gordon

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Re: A theory
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2008, 05:20:31 pm »
The amount of potential energy stored in the drawn bow is the same no matter what the wieght of the tips. The trick is to get as much of that energy transfered to the arrow as practical for a given application. The less energy expended moving the limbs (and tips) the more energy is available to move the arrow.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 05:23:45 pm by Gordon »
Gordon

Offline Kegan

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Re: A theory
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2008, 06:03:14 pm »
The amount of potential energy stored in the drawn bow is the same no matter what the wieght of the tips. The trick is to get as much of that energy transfered to the arrow as practical for a given application. The less energy expended moving the limbs (and tips) the more energy is available to move the arrow.

Ahhhh, now I get it. Makes pefect sense now :)!

Okay, new question, conpletely unrelated- how do you quiet a bow without a soft strike plate ????

Offline markinengland

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Re: A theory
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2008, 06:56:52 pm »
If the bow is not recurved and if the bow and arrows are well matched the bow will be quiet. You do not need a strike plate because the arrow should not make a noise against the bow and the string should not make a noise agasinst the limbs.
Mark in England

Offline stiknstring

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Re: A theory
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2008, 07:01:47 pm »
I always thought that a strike plate was to protect the wood of the handle/riser area.  I have made some out of antler and seen them made of tortoise shell and they were quite hard which to me would equal noise!

Offline Kegan

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Re: A theory
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2008, 07:06:33 pm »
Huh. I always thought that little "tak" agaisnt the bow was a bad thing for hunting ???.

Offline DanaM

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Re: A theory
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2008, 07:50:49 pm »
Cool thread guys. My take on things is if the bow shoots the arrow accurately, quietly and with enough force to kill a deer
then its good enough for me.  ;D
"Prosperity is a way of living and thinking, and not just money or things. Poverty is a way of living and thinking, and not just a lack of money or things."

Manistique, MI

duffontap

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Re: A theory
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2008, 12:45:15 am »
Kegan,

Tim Baker raises the exact question you raised.  He says it is analogus to comparing the power of a golf club compared to a freight train.  The freight train has more power but the golf club is way faster.  If you think about it though, there is a weight of 'arrow' that a freight train--however slow it may be--would shoot faster than a golf club.  Ha, ha.

In answer to your second question--If your arrows are perfect, Perfect, PERFECT in spine they will barely touch the bow as they clear the strike plate.

        J. D.

Offline Gordon

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Re: A theory
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2008, 03:26:54 am »
True JD, but you could not possibly move the freight train the same distance as the golf club with the same expenditure of energy.
Gordon

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: A theory
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2008, 10:19:32 am »
If your arrows are perfect, Perfect, PERFECT in spine they will barely touch the bow as they clear the strike plate.

        J. D.
That statement is about as true as any, but under hunting conditions barely touching or barely making noise can be to much.  Even if it don't make noise when released, the arrow makes noise when being drawn since it has to slide about 20" across the arrow rest.  Use a soft strike plate.  Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

DCM

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Re: A theory
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2008, 10:32:29 am »
This has been much discussed.  I think Tim's (Baker) latest theory is that extra limb mass increases "hysteresis," a term used to describe essentially what Steve calls virtual mass, although it is measured in efficiency terms versus arrow mass terms.  Basicially the idea is that extra limb mass causes the limbs to bend or vibrate upon the loose, robbing energy to friction (the internal friction of anything that bends).  

The most interesting realization I made during the discussions was this, the kinetic energy related to (extra) limb mass IS transferred to the arrow at the end of the power stroke.  The idea being, the limbs kinetic energy is delivered to the arrow at an increasing rate as the angle the string makes with the arrow is increased, this provides the mechanical advantage necessary to "leverage" the relatively high mass of the limbs at low speed to the relatively low mass of the arrow at high speed.  Essentially, the string angle iacts as a set of "gears."  As the limb ends speed approach zero, the arrow nock speed is still accelerated due to this gearing.  This tends to muddy the waters when it comes to judging which is the best, low mass or high energy storage.

But when it's all said and done, lower limb mass is "better" in all practical applications.  The old saying that a longbow throws heavy arrows "better" (than a recurve) is a misconception.  Yes, it throws heavy arrows better than it throws light arrows, just like every other bow.  But it doesn't throw heavy arrows better than a more efficient bow or higher energy storing bow (ie. recurve).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 10:43:02 am by DCM »

Offline tom sawyer

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Re: A theory
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2008, 10:54:20 am »
Hysteresis isn't the equivalent to virtual mass.  Hysteresis is how different the return trip is, from the draw.  As such, its a component of VM since in figuring our your VM you roll everything involved together by determining arrow speed and mass.  You determine stored energy from your F/D curve and what isn't carried off by the arrow, is what is left.  What is left is converted to an equivalent arrow mass that is your VM, its just a way to express "what is left".

Interesting point about string angle and its effect on energy transfer.  It'd be interesting to measure arrow speed as it accelerates during the loose.  Limb speed doesn't really approach zero till it hits the wall though.  But the effects of string angle would mean that there'd be slight differences between short and long bows, and that brace height would have some slight effects in addition to power stroke.  Power stroke would probably swamp out the effect of string angle though.

I purposely avoided this thread as long as I could.  But I just couldn't help myself.
Lennie
Hannibal, MO

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: A theory
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2008, 11:00:58 am »
DCM, I don't think the kinetic energy of the limbs it transfered at the end, KE is only transfered while the limbs are moving. The speed of the arrow squared times the weight of the arrow is the KE we really want. That is why the speed robbing mass is so bad.  The other energy is left in the limb tips until the string brings it to a screeching halt, then it goes through the handle of the bow into your arm.  To throw a heavier arrow better you need all the extra mass in the bending portion of the limb where it can work.  There the extra weight of the arrow wont slow the limb down because the limb has the extra mass working for it (freight train).  If the mass is not working it is bad. If the weight of the tips was allowed to travel beyond the handle and stop on its own it may make a little difference, but only once it is beyond the straight profile. Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

DCM

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Re: A theory
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2008, 01:59:05 pm »
Lennie,

I concede to your better explanation of the contribution of hysteresis to vm.  Only wanted to direct folks attention to the "hysteresis is everything" idea, which I think it the theme of Tim's work in TBB IV.  Certainly it was the thrust of the conversation he hosted at PP.

Justin,

Agreed.  Only trying to make the point that at the lower end of the power stroke it is plausible that both the spring energy remaining in the limbs and their kinetic energy might contribute to accelerating the arrow.

It's an interesting question, whether the arrow is in fact still accelerating at the end of the power stroke, and if so I must wonder how the very low, say 10#, 7#, 5# of force only could account for this acceleration, particularly in light of the fact that it's "purchase" or leverage against the arrow is ever decreasing.  Were it not, still accelerating, clear it would have to be decellerating at a rate faster than the limbs, which hardly seems likely given their relative mass and friction.  Seems like one of the math wiz fellars convinced me KE was contributing at the end of the power stroke.

This stuff can cook one's brain.

Offline Badger

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Re: A theory
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2008, 03:37:05 pm »
    I don't believe that hysterisis is as significant as many would try to have us believe. I would just guess about 5%. The most significant factor I have found, right along with outboard mass on the limbs is how much we have changed the wood durring the tillering process. Experimenting around I am convinced that wood is every bit as fast as fiberglass until the wood starts to get some memory of being bent, At this point it is all downhill. I have seen self bows shooting at 24" what the very best selfbows shoot tat 28". Those same bows showed no improvement and even lost speed when tillered out to 28" just because the wood started breaking down even though it wasn't all that visible in the bow taking much set. Steve