Author Topic: bows used by the proto germans  (Read 10478 times)

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Offline wolfhelm

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bows used by the proto germans
« on: August 19, 2014, 02:58:37 pm »
hi, i am a proto germanic and archery nutcase, and was wondering what types of bows the proto germanics used...

Offline autologus

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2014, 03:17:47 pm »
Whatever the last bow you shot.  ;)  Welcome to PA.

Grady
Proud Hillbilly from Arkansas.

Offline Pat B

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2014, 03:23:57 pm »
Hopefully some of our German members will chime in with an answer.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline wolfhelm

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 03:30:11 pm »
hopefully, from research ive done ive gathered the oberflacht bow, but not much else. also i would like to think they used something like the elb, but im not sure...

Offline Pat B

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 03:42:42 pm »
Were they around during the ELB era? If so, they probably used them.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline wolfhelm

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 04:08:59 pm »
they wernt around during the time the english used the elb, thats for sure...

Offline Dharma

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2014, 04:22:17 pm »
It depends on how far you want to go back and what period you refer to as Proto-Germanic. Germanic tribes went through what they called the Volkerwanderung, or, Migration Period and this came in successive waves over hundreds of years. Germanic people are, of course, Indo-European people and there are many theories about where they came from. Many say off the steppes of Eurasia as originally a nomadic, pastoral people. Many Proto-Indo-European words back that up. Hence, the horse and the chariot. If that is the case, their original bows were probably composite bows of steppe nomadic peoples. Over time, as the chariot was abandoned for all but ceremonial use, they would have gone to longbows as they were foot-fighters after settling. At that time, they tended to adopt shield-wall, spear, and sword tactics. However, bows were used often as well. Just my opinion, but the bows were probably of a flatbow design, though perhaps a D type longbow could have been used.

One can look towards the Scandinavian God Ullr and the Goddess Skadi and see that both of these deities were related to archery with Ullr specifically a God of archery and bowmen and Skadi a Goddess of bowmen and hunters. Lore related to Them may reveal some valuable clues.

  The Elder Futhark Rune Eihwaz means "yew" but also specifically a bow made from yew. This gives us a valuable clue as to what wood was preferred for bowmaking. You can look up various translations of the Rune Poems and see references made to yew bows in talking about Eihwaz. So, again, there we have the critical clue that tells us what the preferred wood was for making the bows of the period. Some also say the Rune Elhaz (or Algiz as some know it) relates to yew as well and also to yew bows. These Runes predate the development of the English longbow for quite some time.

  In addition, there is the Anglo-Frisian Rune Yr which is specifically "yew bow". So, again, yew is still the preferred wood for bows when the Anglo Saxons went over to England. Again, this Rune predates the development of the English longbow for quite some time.

   Also mentioned as bowmaking wood of the period is elm. This would have been their secondary wood. It is interesting to note that the Cosmic World Tree in Germanic myth is Yggdrasil which, while it is debated, is thought to be a Yew by many scholars. Also, in Germanic myth, First Man is made from an Ash Tree while First Woman is made from an Elm. Ash is what was used for spearshafts, Elm was used for some bowmaking, while Yew made the best bows. Whenever trees and wood is mentioned in any ancient myth, that's where you'll find the crucial clues as to what was used for weapons, both for hunting and for war. One's life depended on the weapons, thus, the wood had to have had some Divine origin or link.

   
An arrow knows only the life its maker breathes into it...

Offline Dharma

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2014, 04:35:39 pm »
Also, bear in mind there were many different Germanic tribes, much the same as there were different Native American tribes. Just as bows differed in design from tribe to tribe with Native Americans, so too would you have the same variations among Germanic tribes over time and distance. So, the Cherusci  and Cimbri might not have had the same type of bow as, say, the Vandals or the Visigoths, for example. While Germanic tribes shared common myths, religious customs, and, to some extent, a language, they did have variations in weaponry. Not all Germanic tribes used the Seax, for example, though many others besides the Saxons used it.   
An arrow knows only the life its maker breathes into it...

Offline ajbruggink

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2014, 09:12:23 pm »
I asked a similar question when I first registered on PA, because I too am interested in the Germanic Peoples. The best sources I have found are the 'Ancient European Bows' chapter by Paul Comstock in TBB volume II and The Bow Builder's Book and the bulk of what I'm about to share with you comes from those two sources.  To answer your question it would depend on how far you want to go back and what you consider Proto-Germanic. I do not know when the Germanic Peoples first came about, but my research has suggested their culture originated at the earliest 1700 BCE, which we don't know if they had knowledge of Bronze Age or if they were still in the Neolithic Age, because the Bronze Age reached people at different times and some peoples around the world didn't even experience it. I only mention this because the Bronze Age brought about changes in the way Europeans made bows. The largest change was the practice of following one ring on the back. Before this, European bows didn't follow one ring. ELB and flatbow designs co-existed in the previous Neolithic Era except that the yew bows were made entirely of heartwood, no sapwood. All the info about bows I just shared came from Paul Comstock's 'Ancient European Bows' and he shares how to use their bowbuilding techniques to your advantage. In the Iron Age, when the Germanic Peoples seem to appear in written records, archery suffered a decline in Europe due to advances in agriculture and metallurgy. Also, when I think of Germanic Peoples of this time period, I don't think of an archer. I think of a man wielding a spear and a shield, if he was rich he would have a sword as well. My research on the Germanic Peoples has led to believe that at least the early Germanic Peoples, did not think too much of archery in battle, believing the bow to only be used as a hunting weapon and that it was malicious and childish to use in warfare, but I believe that there are recorded instances where Germanic Peoples used the longbow against the Romans. 36 bows were found on a buried boat in Nydam and they date between A.D. 100 and A.D. 350, before the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and were made like the English Longbow, following one ring on the back, some having a D cross section, some having an ovoid cross-section ( probably because they were made from small diameter stock), the bowyers left the sapwood as is but they were not as wide, deep or as long as the ELB's found on the Mary Rose. Other discoveries like this were found at other locations in bogs of Denmark and Northern Germany, where Germanic Peoples have dwelled for a very long time. This info I got from Paul Comstock's 'Ancient European Bows' and The Bow Builder's Book even lists arrows made of pine being found at Nydam. Past this, I don't think its Proto-Germanic anymore. Sorry it was so long, I hope this helps, and I hope I did not make it look I'm pulling this stuff out of the air because I'm not. Oh, I also forgot to mention that The Bow Builder's Book talks about replicating the Oberflacht bow, I find it very interesting, especially since the author's replica broke and he seems to suggest it was used with a pinch or tertiary draw as opposed to the 3 finger draw. Good luck with your further research and be sure to share.

-Aaron     

Offline bambule

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2014, 03:05:22 pm »
well, take a look ath the Koldingen bow. Because of that there was not a German country in the past you can take the Möllegabet Bow or the Holmegaard Bow the Oberflacht Bow and english Style longbows. There is also a kind of bow called the Tybring Vid Bow from Denmark. Than there is an Alemmanic Bow. Most of them are made from yew, Möllegabet and Holmegaard are from Elm.
Also the oldest bow ever found came from Hamburg, made from Pine - we didn't know well if this piece of wood was really a bow.
May you define the exat time you mean when you ask for german bows :-)
Niedersachsen, Germany

Offline wolfhelm

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 04:18:11 pm »
by time i mean like roman era through the migration period, to the founding of the holy roman empire, and maybe even the bows used up untill the widspread adoption of the crossbow by the central european countrys...

Offline ajbruggink

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2014, 06:17:50 pm »
From the Roman Era to the adoption of the crossbow, I would think the ELB design reigned supreme but I have no evidence besides what I've read.

Offline Dharma

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2014, 12:46:49 pm »
If one accepts that Germanic tribes were pastoral nomads around the Black Sea area during the Migration Period, as some say, then it's possible those bows were composite bows used from horseback. But once you're in the heavily-forested areas of Germania, you're probably going to go to a longbow instead. Composite bows take a long time to make compared to a longbow you can make from now readily-available yew. Terrain and warfare tactics will often govern bow design, as well as if one is agrarian, pastoral, or hunter-gatherer. Take for example the composite bow. The composite bow of a Scythian or Mongol isn't going to be the same as the composite bow of an Ancient Assyrian or Egyptian chariot crew.

Now, the Romans often hired mercenaries they called "auxiliary troops" to provide specialized battle skills. Many times, their archers were Syrians who had composite bows. So the bows of the Roman era weren't necessarily bows the Romans themselves made. Germanic tribes would have kept on using what worked. Look how long the U.S. military has been attached to the M-16 series of service weapons despite what everyone else has invented since.

If one accepts the theories about the Indo-Europeans, then the composite bow, chariots, and horses are how they overcame the indigenous peoples of wherever they went. Once they did that and became settled, they now needed to field large professional armies to defend their land. So, enter the longbow.

In general, unless you're talking about horse archers, nomads, or extreme desert folks, some type of longbow is what you'll find in the hands of people all over the world. Even the composite bow of chariot crews was closer in design to a reflex-deflex longbow than a horsebow with siyahs. That's if the stone-carvings and tomb paintings of the Assyrians and Egyptians were done with accuracy.

As far as making an exact reproduction, that isn't always possible without several intact examples. But if you were holding a longbow made right now and some guy from some old Germanic tribe came through a time warp and saw the bow, he'd know what it was right away. Until he examined it closer in his hands, he probably wouldn't think there was a difference between yours and ones from his era. Whereas, let's say you were holding a modern take-down recurve, he'd know it's some type of bow but not what type or why it looks the way it does.
An arrow knows only the life its maker breathes into it...

Offline wolfhelm

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Re: bows used by the proto germans
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2014, 12:22:52 pm »
good explanation Dharma, thank you very much