working details for higher poundages

[Del the cat]

Not sure I'd trust hot melt glue 
I use a thick CA glue for temporary nocks, they get cut/sawn/rasped off when the real ones are fitted.
With big warbows I'd suggest it's virtually impossible to floor tiller due to the length and poundage. Reaching up to one end while pushing hard on the middle is a great way to over stretch the muscles in-between your shoulder blades.
I'm a lazy git and some times can't be bothered to put in stringer grooves... I've felt the burn between my shoulders or strained my lower back once too often when trying to string a heavyish bow.
It's a tricky balance between the overthink/numbers and doing it by feel. We all have to find our own working point.
There is no right and wrong.
Del

[meanewood]

On the subject of temporary nocks. Since Alistair and Jeremy posted the info about the Elm bow found on the 'Mary Rose', I have used the simple back shamfer which I believe was the nocking system used on that bow.

It's so easy and works perfectly from long string to finish. Just use a running loop on the upper limb and a bowyers knot on the lower limb.

[willie]

Meanewood-

the simple back chamfer sounds interesting. where would I find the posting that Alistair and Jeremy made about it? This is my first look at the warbow, and to be honest I have not spent too much time searching on the internet for the resources that are commonly used in England. Would you be kind enough to share any other links that might help out someone new to warbows?

Btw, I had a brief email exchange with WillS a few weeks back about arrows, and he educated me as to the definition of meanewood, or white wood as we say here. Do you build meanewood warbows? I fear that this belly of larch that I am working on may prove to be no better than the hardwood back, in which case I will be looking through my birch staves to make the warbow

thanks
willie

[meanewood]

Hi Willie

In Warbow circles, meanewood is a general term used for all European woods used to make bows other than Yew!
It comes from a passage of a book written about archery in Tudor times.
The author, 'Roger Ascham' uses the word meane (ordinary) when describing those woods in comparison to Yew.
The woods referred to are probably Ash, Elm, Hazel, Laburnum, Holly etc.

I live in Australia and don't have access to Yew but can source Elm from the hills around Adelaide.

Using mostly Elm, I was delighted when Jeremy and Alistair from Warbow Wales, posted an article about the only Elm bow recovered from the 'Mary Rose' wreak.
The post is on page 2 and is titled Bow X1-3.
There is a link on there to the article on the Warbow Wales website.

When looking at the photo of the 2 tips of the bow, I'm sure the shamfer ed one is original because the patina is the same as the rest of the bow.
The other tip however is lighter and looks to be the result of someone cutting off the end, probably to make it fit in a display case back in the 19th century!

As you can see from the pics I posted on that topic, I'm using that system of nocking on that and 9 other Elm bows I've made.
Elm seems to be able to cope with the 'Back' trimmed like that and after a while the string leaves an indentation in the tip which if anything makes nocking easier because the loop seats itself nicely each time!

As for advice about woods used for laminates, I'm afraid I've never made one. I'm sure other guys can advise which woods are best.

Hope that helps

[willie]

The bow is shown at 27" draw and is 71" ntn. I realize that I could have made this bow shorter, but I wanted something of the same proportions as the next bow which will be made of whitemeanewood and needs to be long for it's draw.

Please let me know what you think of this tiller as a model for the 100# up next. It came out sort of circular to my eye at 27".

I am thinking that proper tiller at full draw for a true warbow should end up bending a little more in the mid-limbs?

[willie]

the temp nock photo is for Del, just so he won't think that all us yanks have more pucker power than common sense when using hot melt glue.

[meanewood]

Hi Willie

That's looking good!
Just one observation, the support block on your tiller. Is it square to the upright?

In the pics it looks to be falling a bit to the left.

[willie]

Meanewood-

good eye! I remounted the support block the other day and is indeed off. I also made a linen string for use on the chamfered nocks, and can't believe how simple they are.

Do you use the linen thread for your strings, and are they flemish? I have some seven cord or ply and tried to make a flemish by rolling it on my thigh, but it did not seem to twist well, so I made endless but rather do flemish if I can. Learning what I have about my belly wood, I think I am going with a self stave of some lighter hardwood for the 100# and leave the laminate stuff for another day.

thanks
willie

[meanewood]

Hi Willie

Yes, linen 3 ply thread. I form the upper running loop in a endless fashion with some extra strand reinforcement and served.
I make this loop about the size of a pencil and pass the string through it to form the running loop!

This type of  loop works very well on horn side nocks as well.

[willie]

thanks again, perhaps I will experiment some more trying to make flemish out of twine

[Del the cat]

the temp nock photo is for Del, just so he won't think that all us yanks have more pucker power than common sense when using hot melt glue.

Excellent!
Del

[colin1991]

Willie,

If you use left limb as lower limb you should get some fairly good timing with the arrow pass right at centre.  If its not bottom the left needs a few scrapes handle to mid-limb to even them out.

As far as a "proper" tiller for a warbow... make it how you want it. Circular or whipped... your choice.  Personally I prefer a slightly whipped tiller because to me they feel much smoother to shoot.

As far as going for a stave over a laminate for the 100lb version you want to make, why?  Laminates are far more controllable in construction than staves, a laminate allows you to tailor make the bow to what you want and use woods where they are best suited.

I'm a little confused by this thread because you have not talked about dimensions for a stave (lam or self) to get the weight you are after anywhere, just some about length and mass... width and thickness is pretty key in getting a desired weight... Changing length just changes the working strain in the bow if its made shorter and mass doesn't mean much at all.

Colin

[willie]

Thanks for the input everyone, and I will probably spend a few more minutes tillering, after I fix the tree.

Colin- do not mean to be confusing about my plans for the larger bow. The lack of information is on the account of the fact that the plan for the bow is not well made at this point. My recently made bow was a laminate because I was experimenting with a piece of Larch for the belly that I found in the stud pile at the lumber yard. It has straight grain and a pretty color, and might have some future use for laminated bows of lighter poundages, but the piece I tillered seemed to keep giving me problems in the same spot, and the jury is still out as to whether it has a future in my bow making plans. I quit tillering when the bow hit 45# and it seems to be taking more set just leaving it strung.

My experiments with materials have little to do with the plans for the 100# warbow at this point.  Not having a local source for hardwood boards, almost all my bows have been made using staves I harvest myself. Unfortunately the best trees in my area, are lighter meanewoods. primarily birch. I have some nice long staves to use, and a big guy that wants a heavy bow. The plan is to go hunting for some dangerous game, using primitive arrows also. I need to get all the poundage I can, out of the longest and widest bow that he can stand to shoot, and shoot with some accuracy.

Having never tillered warbow before, I thought that my laminate experiment would be a good opportunity to refine a tiller to duplicate in the larger bow. It is the tillering part of my experiment that is most important to me with this bow, and why I am posting in this section.
I am curious as to what tiller shape might be most appropriate for a self meanewood warbow. You mentioned a little more bending in the tips than a perfect circular arc at full draw. I see some examples posted that seem to be slightly flatter in the handle also. Perhaps circular at a few inches shy of full draw, then lighten the mid and outer limbs some to reach full draw could be a plan for tillering?
We will be shooting at close range, and accuracy will be important for proper shot placement. I suppose that our arrows will have to be somewhat on the lighter side to shoot well from a wide handle. I do not know enough about these heavy designs to choose the most effective tiller.
At any rate, having never tillered warbows before, I thought that I might like to have a bow in hand with the best tiller shape, to use as a model while building the bigger bow.

willie

[WillS]

Tiller shape is down to preference more than anything, but personally I think a slightly whip-tillered bow is suitable more for laminates or very occasionally certain types of yew as compared to white woods. 

White woods are so prone to chrysals that having any area bending more than another at heavy weights to me seems a recipe for disaster.  I'd focus on a virtually circular tiller, with the primary focus being to get the whole bow sharing equal amounts - especially if you're not able to get hold of the absolute best examples of some of the more forgiving meane woods such as elm, ash or hazel.

Once you have a good few under your belt you can play with the tiller and experiment but keep it safe and simple to begin with!

[willie]

a few more pics were posted on the tillering goal thread in the bow section

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,54581.0.html


willie