Elm ELB "Once more unto the breach"

[dobson]

I have posted this project up on Paleoplanet but I wanted to put it up on here for those that dont use that message board. Been a while since I last tired to create a bow and they have all been from from board staves, with a bit of Shakespearean inspiration I am venturing back into bowmaking this time from a 'true' stave.

I'm trying to make a self medieval style ELB from an Elm stave that ahs been seasoned for a year, I debarked it over the weekend and started to lay it out, however being that all my experience has come from boards i'm nervous with the knots in the wood!

After debarking I found the centerline , then adjusted it at  either end (no greater than 0.5 inch either side) until I got the centerline running through or avoiding knots.

Here are the dimensions I'm trying to work to the numbered red rings are the location of the knots Im trying to avoid or contain fully.



Knot 1, should not be a problem, its not big and it easily fits in the taper between the handle and last 8 inches.



Knot 2 - While not in the bow it Is a bit close for comfort on the edge of the midlimb, will I get away with it?


Knot 3 - Quite big, and just before the last 8 inches of where the bow tapers to the tips, did originally think of perhaps adding a 1/4 inch to my dimensions just to fit this in, but I think I can get away with it.
The blue lines that are marked out is where I tested that theory, the problem was it meant that knot 2 was half way into my bow.


Do I need to make any changes to where I lay out the bow? I appreciate that Im approaching this like a board stave and that the edges probably wont be as uniform or linear when I start to rough the bow out.

Also when I was debarking the bow I cut into the wood underneath, meaning I will have to reduce the stave to a single growth ring. Do I need to reduce the whole stave to a single growth ring, or can I rough out the bows taper first and then do it?

If any further explanation is needed dont hesitate to let me know!

Edit: Now might be a good time to mention I bought another stave, bigger too.

[WillS]

Knot 2 might be a problem.  That said, your current dimensions are gonna make a really heavy bow.  I doubt you'll be close to them by the time it's done so you may well find that knot disappears eventually.  There's a point where you just have to stop reading/thinking and chop the thing up

You're looking ok for now apart from that second knot.  I'd start reducing the width down to your initial dimensions and then look at chasing the ring as you damaged a bit of the back when stripping the bark (but you already knew that, as its mentioned in the PP thread)

[Del the cat]

The knots are a tad large.
Can you lay the bow out more round on the side/edge of the log and avoid the biggest ones?
It's easy to think it has to be in the middle.
As a general comment, aim for a squareish, or trapped back. Heat treating the belly helps too.
There is one Elm Warbow build along on my blog, but the back was knot free, so not much help there then
Del

[mikekeswick]

Once you have reduced it down  to somewhere near floor tiller thickness plus a bit then chase the ring. No need to do the whole stave (log!).
When you rough out the bow leave the knots in. You will have a much clearer idea of how to deal with them once the sides of the stave are reduced somewhat. I would recommend using a small, very sharp axe and a drawknife for this. You will likely 'cut through' areas if you use a bandsaw whereas an axe/drawknife will follow the grain.
Personally I'd split it in half and then reduce the sides a bit. Do this and then post some more pictures.

[dobson]

Cheers for the replies, really helpful!

I'm looking for a bow in the range of 50-60#, in fact the dimensions im using for width came from Mike so thanks for that too!

I will be using a squareish cross section and ill have a go at trapping the back, I would like to avoid heat treating if possible, id place authenticity over performance as the bow is intended for living history (Not sure how I would explain to the public how medieval bowyers burned their bows to reduce string follow ) But if the bow looks like its taking excessive of set I will try it too.

That said I seem to have two options

A. Continue as planned keeping the knots in the bow, just take care around knot 2,

B.See if I can place the bow further down the side, the only worry is its a small stave (just under 4") in Diameter, I might just be able to get it knot free but the problem is that I lose quite a bit of thickness as I get closer to the side, I reckon I need an inch bare minimum (with the current centerline I have just under 2" to play with), ill have a look when I get back tonight to see if it could work.

An image of the smaler end of the stave (about 45mm high 90mm wide)


P.s To Mike, by splitting it In half do you mean quarter it? I appreciate that it might look like a full log in the pictures I posted earlier.

[OTDEAN]

Listen to Mike, he makes good longbows!  I got one! 

You say that heat treating the bow is not authentic?  I bet if you went back in a time machine and observed a medieaval bowyer, you might learn a  thing or two, and if you tried to teach him about heating treating a bow, he would probably think you were an apprentice!  Get the book 'with bended bow' by Erik Roth all about medieval bowyery.  It is well researched and talks about making longbows custom made to the archers body measurements.  The bows are truely made to fit then.  I have made an ash longbow based on the medieval rules of measurement using the archers body parts. I have found the arrow measurement fit me perfect for a draw to my ear!

Good luck with this bow, I will keep looking to see how you get on!

Dean

[toomanyknots]

Personally I'd split it in half and then reduce the sides a bit. Do this and then post some more pictures.

I would probably do the same if I had knots going down the center, and I would try to split right at the knots to insure they wouldn't be in the layout of the bows. But it also might warp on you when you split it and screw alignment up.

[dobson]

Think I got in over my head, got home and measured the stave again, turns out I could get rid of my knots and still have plenty of timber If split the stave in half, so I went right ahead, it started fine but after about half way, went wrong, was cringing as I split the last half. The top part of the bow is now spindle thin 









Anything to salvage, or put it down to experience?  Now might be a good time to mention I have another, bigger stave waiting

[Del the cat]

This answers those who always insist splitting is better than sawing...
If you'd laid out the bow and sawed it, you'd have a bow stave and a long lump of scrap which maybe you could have got something out of...
Sorry... no point being wise after the event.
On a more positive note, maybe you can get two billets from it?
Del

[dobson]

This answers those who always insist splitting is better than sawing...
If you'd laid out the bow and sawed it, you'd have a bow stave and a long lump of scrap which maybe you could have got something out of...
Sorry... no point being wise after the event.
On a more positive note, maybe you can get two billets from it?
Del

Well hindsight is always 20/20, but I must agree if I come accross this situation again ill be using a saw, I think had I had a bigger stave I might have had better luck with the splitting, but given how small this one was there was little room for error.

I did wonder about billets, it might work, What I did split is acceptable for about 4-5 ft is there anything I could do with that? kids bow maybe?

I wont be devestated if nothing comes from this piece, It was the cheaper of the two and bought specifically for practice. Didnt realise I would be learning the hard lesson this early though 

I would like to debark the second stave and see how its looking (this time with more care not to damage the wood underneath!).

Theres a wonderful quote on your blog Del, 'The man who never made a mistake never made anything', rings true for many things, especially bowyery!

[Del the cat]

5' kids bow, no prob, at least it give you a chance to work the wood.
Even a 1/2 or 1/3 scale bow is good fun and miniatures can really spit out an arrow.
Del

[mikekeswick]

I thought it was a whole log not already split. I meant get it into two halves by spliting. The other half looks good anyway.....so to clarify use a drawknife/axe to get it reduced to floor tiller.
An axe or drawknife basically works by splitting/following the grain.
A saw will cut through your grain. Sawing is fine once you know what you are doing otherwise it can be a very quick route to a ruined stave as well.
There is no one 'right' way just lots of ways to get to the same point. That point being a floor tillered stave without the grain violated.
The more bows you make the more this will become second nature.

[Marc St Louis]

This answers those who always insist splitting is better than sawing...
If you'd laid out the bow and sawed it, you'd have a bow stave and a long lump of scrap which maybe you could have got something out of...
Sorry... no point being wise after the event.
On a more positive note, maybe you can get two billets from it?
Del

What I was thinking as well

[bubbles]

I screwed up a few elm staves when splits went bad.  Maybe they split better when wet?

What are the actual measurements of the tip area? Bows are supposed to be quite small at the tips, so you might just be uncomfortably close to finished size.

[dobson]

I looked at the products of my previous attempts, the smaller stave is knot free but very fragile, the second peice is perfect size but is inundated with knots!

I decided to debark the second stave (I have done my best to not go further than the cambium layer as best I could, I found with the last stave that I was cutting through into the next growth ring. The stave looks promising, and has a very clear middle section, most of the knots are on the side and easily avoided.

The stave and my initial center line - cant really go wrong, don't want to venture near to either side because there are big clusters of knots



The one dilemma I face - I can have a 6 ft bow, but have a knot in the last 8 inches to the tip (tapers from 1" to 0:5) Or I could cut the bow down to 5'8 (my height, still by technicality a longbow)


the other knot,  on the other limb, where the handle fades into the midlimb, should have plenty of room to accommodate it


What do you guys think? Should I cut the stave down to avoid those pesky knots at the tip or keep it in?